Jack Lewis E-mail

[Spur]

This is where I read it:

24.E.2. Bidding Restrictions on Subsequent Postings
During the time a pilot is in ITU training, he shall not be awarded a crew status that he could have been awarded on the posting containing the crew position for which he presently is in training, or on a subsequent posting that closed prior to the start of his training.

Could he have held 727 Capt on the bid he got the MD F/O award?

 

[PurpleTail]

The main thing to do is bid what you really want to fly. What is most commutable and which airplane/schedule will allow you the most time with your family? DON'T CHASE THE MONEY, it won't do you much good if you're divorsed.

 

[TonyC]

If you were an Airbus FO and wanted to switch to MD-11 FO, you could. Once you are in the MD-11, you are THEN locked into that seat for 2 years. If you were in the DC-10 as an FO, but back bid to the SO position, you could do that too, but once you got there, you would then be locked into the SO seat for 2 years.

Nothing prevents a back bid or lateral move, but once you get there, you are stuck for 2 years.

Goose17

OK, guys. If you've got access to the FedEx pilots' website, go take a look for yourself: Section 24.E. Filling of Vacancies - Other Crew Position Award Procedures (If you don't, I'll try to post enough so you can follow along.)

First, the definition of Lateral or Downbid is based on hourly rate. So, in order of pay: 72 SO, 10 SO, 72 FO, 10/11/30 FO, 72 CA, 10/11/30 CA

Second, the definition of Down/Lateral Bid Restriction: Unless waived by the Vice President, Flight Operations, or his designee, a pilot may not receive a permanent vacancy award based on a down/lateral bid unless he has been in his current crew status for at least 18 months.

Third, the definition of Down/Lateral Bid Freeze: A pilot who is activated in a crew status that requires ITU training based on a down/lateral bid shall be frozen in that crew status for 24 months, commencing on his actual activation date. A pilot is not eligible for a permanent crew position award requiring ITU training with a projected training date during that freeze period except under the following conditions...

So, back to Goose's example: "If you were an Airbus FO and wanted to switch to MD-11 FO,..." you would be restricted. You could not be awarded MD-11 FO (a lateral bid) unless you had been an Airbus FO for at least 18 months.

If you meet that restriction, you can be awarded the MD-11 FO crew position. Once you're activated as an MD-11 FO, you are then frozen for 24 months. If you could hold A380 Captain at $2000 an hour the very next month, too bad - - you're stuck where you are for 24 months. There is one exception that would release you from the freeze, though. (Well, several, but only one of interest here.) "A pilot who down bid in his aircraft to a lower crew seat is eligible for an award of a crew position in a higher crew seat in the same aircraft type during the time of his freeze." So, if you bid from DC-10 FO to DC-10 SO, you could get an award during the period of the freeze for DC-10 FO, but not MD-11 FO.


Now, don't confuse the Down/Lateral Bid Restriction or Down/Lateral Bid Freeze with the Bidding Restrictions on Subsequent Postings:
During the time a pilot is in ITU training, he shall not be awarded a crew status that he could have been awarded on the posting containing the crew position for which he presently is in training, or on a subsequent posting that closed prior to the start of his training.

This restriction is that to which Spur refers, and was brought up to answer the questions of 2Aoff1Bon and LEROY. Since they could not hold 72 FO in the previous bids, there is no "Bidding Restriction on Subsequent Postings" that applies. IF (and it looks very likely) they are awarded a higher seat position on THIS posting, that doesn't take away the position that they were previously awarded (DC-10 SO). The question they asked is, essentially, "Would I still go to DC-10 SO school?" That's where Cancellation of Awards comes into play. (That's 24.E.4 for those of you who are following along at home. )

Cancellation of Awards: The Company may cancel an award/assignment of a crew position in reverse seniority order provided it does so at least 30 days prior to the pilot's scheduled training date.

It would appear, then, that the ITU training that begins up to 30 days after this Vacancy Posting closes will continue as scheduled. The twist I see is the class that starts more than 30 days later. If the Company decides to cancel those awards, there could be a string of Passover Pay triggers.

Now, who has that LOA handy?

 

[TonyC]

Spur,
I'm not sure you're correct or maybe I just read it wrong. Example: My sim partner during MD-11 training (F/O) can hold Boeing Captain, and bids it(the last bid we had). He is awarded Boeing Captain and drops out of MD-11 training the day before his oral. Of course, he had to talk with the CP, but he said no problem (although I do believe he was also awarded a trainingfailure for dropping out of 11 school).
Fox

There is no provision in the Agreement of which I am aware that would relieve one of the responsibility to complete the training which he bid and was awarded, i.e., the MD-11 FO position, even if there is a Vacancy Posting during the course of that training where he receives an award for a position that pays more, i.e., 727 CAPT. That simply secures him a position in a line arranged by seniority to train in that new position. That may mean that he completes the training in the first position only to turn right around and begin another training program. It would seem that common sense might come into play here, but think about it - - when was the last time common sense won the day in matters of Contract, huh?

Apparently, there was some exercise of judgment on the part of the pilot and the Chief Pilot to allow him to drop out of the MD-11 FO ITU, as I dont see any part of the contract that would by specific language allow it. If indeed the pilot received some punitive action in the process, it's no surprise. Disappointing, but not surprising. Every opportunity to punish the pilot...


Don't be fooled by the folksy e-mails, he's not your friend.

 

[skytrain]

TonyC, thanks for speaking in laymen terms! Now I know who to go to w/ any question re: our contract. Unfortunately, I never took a class in either Latin or Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Consequently, I ride the short bus when trying to decipher what the hell parts of our CBA really mean.

 

[FedEx1]

Too bad I DIDN'T stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night....

...Or I might have this all figured out.

Tony

I called my ALPA rep when the new seat bid came out, since I am scheduled for ITU in Feb (it is already on my schedule), but will be able to hold a higher seat in this next round. (I could not hold anything higher on previous bids.) He said that it is the company's discretion on whether or not I go to the original training slot- if the powers that be side with Jack, I may not. (That would add one of those extra training events he was complaining about.) I have to wait and see after the bid closes.

So, either he was wrong, or we all flunk law school.

I really don't mind the extra training cycle, as much as it can be a pain in the a$$. But it would be a huge waste of money and time for the company.

Fedex1

 

[TonyC]

...Or I might have this all figured out.

Tony

I called my ALPA rep when the new seat bid came out, since I am scheduled for ITU in Feb (it is already on my schedule), but will be able to hold a higher seat in this next round. (I could not hold anything higher on previous bids.) He said that it is the company's discretion on whether or not I go to the original training slot- if the powers that be side with Jack, I may not. (That would add one of those extra training events he was complaining about.) I have to wait and see after the bid closes.

So, either he was wrong, or we all flunk law school.

Even ALPA Reps can make mistakes, honest mistakes, and they can't be expected to be walking experts on each and every nuance of the CBA. I studied the contract before I spoke up about the issue, even though I have read it before and thought I already knew the correct answer. If the Company cancels your February training, they are depriving you of your awarded crew position and the pay raise that entails. I don't see how that is allowed in the Contract. If it's detrimental to the pilot and it's not allowed in the contract, it would deserve the support of the Union to dispute.

I can see how the Union might support a plan to cancel the training slots and pay passover pay beginning at the scheduled activation date, but that, too, would need be negotiated.

Negotiated... speaking of negotiations, if they want something, they can get their tails in gear. We've been engaged in this process for nearly a year.

Go to class - - I'm startin' on 2 Feb.

31 Jan, 1 Feb, 2 Feb, ... they're all the same... each one is just

ONE MORE DAY OF RETRO PAY

 

[2Aoff1Bon]

Tony,

Thanks for the explanation. It sounds like I am going to training, ... or maybe not. Depending on what happens with the bid, there is one scenario where I would want to start next month, and one where I wouldn't. Again, thanks for the good info, but Skytrain put it well regarding the "short bus" on matters relating to the contract. I'm sitting right behind him on the bus!