Jack Lewis E-mail

[Los1]

Anybody have any thoughts on what the e-mail from the CP means...?
Los1

 

[klhoard]

I'm sure someone will post it in it's entirety soon.
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However, I think the gist is that the bean counters should have been hiring more in the past, but now it's gonna take us a couple years to catch up.
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In the mean time, expect your phone to be ringing off the hook!!

 

[USMCFDX]

why bother here it will just be moved

 

[PurpleTail]

All I know is that I'm bidding out of LAX and going back to MEM on this next bid.

The flying in LA is going down hill, tons of brutal Out-n-Backs and very ineffecient flying because very few trips actually hook together. It is tough to commute from outside the LA area and unless you live within 50 miles of the airport traffic sucks a$$. JL said himself he wold close the base down if it was up to him so you know the clock is ticking.

 

[slowdryver]

I think he is trying to get people to bid accordingly to help sovle some of the staffing needs and all the headaches that come with it. There's going to be a lot of movement in the next few years.

 

[TonyC]

I've been scratching my head about the e-mail, too. Did anybody get the Reader's Digest version, the Cliff's notes, or the English translation? I read it twice, then copied it to MS Word to change the font and read it again. The best I can figure is he spent 1129 words (no, I didn't count, that's one of the cool features of MS Word) to say, "Bid what you want to fly."


Am I way off base there?


PurpleTail... as for LAX flying... first off, bid what you want to fly. Then, consider the value of the paid move. If they decide to close the domicile, I expect it will be a slow painful process where the flying gets so bad that people voluntarily bid out, and they won't receive the move package. If you can stick it out to the bitter end, there should be a monetary reward. Only you know if that's worth it to you.

By the way, they could make the decision to close LAX after the bid closes and before the results are announced. You never know. I have never been happy with a coterminal domicile (LAX, ONT, what are the other two? Long Beach, and John Wayne?). I don't know how you guys manage to sit reserve and be available to report to any of the four airports. Anyway...


The overall impression I got from the e-mail was this: Woe is us, we're going to have a lot of guys in training. Could y'all just settle down in one seat and stay put for us, please?


Yeah, right....

 

[NightFlyer]

Tony, I've been based in LA for a year and a half now and I've only flown out of ONT a hand full of times. It's really not that bad as long as you're not driving during rush hour.

Also, I think PurpleTail needs to stay in LA since he's senior to me and I'm going to be based in Memphis now.

NightFlyer

 

[PurpleTail]

Don't worry NightFlyer MEM will be a much easier commute for you...besides I don't think one more guy in front of you (480 pilots growing to 550) will effect our Reserve bidding anyway

After reading the letter I will say this...next peak is going to be VERY interesting. My point being...Lots of guys in training=shortage of line pilots=open time/volunteer/draft. If we haven't made significant progress on the new contract (18 months after amendable date) the natives (read pilots) will hopefully start getting restless. I wonder what would happen if we stopped accepting draft/volunteer trips to send a message to management??? I know, I know...we will always have pilots chasing the money but we could be in a pretty good position. Lets stay unified, lets stay strong.

Two words...RETRO PAY, RETRO PAY

 

[2Aoff1Bon]

The letter said that training freezes would be upheld and to read the contract on what applies. I have -10 S/O training starting next month, but I'm pretty sure I will hold a right seat on this bid. I just missed the Boeing right seat last time (had no idea I would be that close to it). If I get it this time (or a wide-body right seat), will my -10 training slot go away or not? I didn't see anything in the contract about that scenario (then again there's a lot of stuff I read in the contract that I don't really understand.) The letter spoke of all the ripples when someone doesn't train for the seat they were awarded, so I just wonder how that is handled. I know training freezes apply to failures, but not sure about this situation.

 

[NightFlyer]

I think you'll be okay as long as you haven't started training by the time the bid closes. Then again I've been known to be wrong a time or two.


NightFlyer

 

[klhoard]

They should just send me straight to MD-11 Captain school right now and save the extra training cycles.
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[USNFDX]

The letter said that training freezes would be upheld and to read the contract on what applies. I have -10 S/O training starting next month, but I'm pretty sure I will hold a right seat on this bid. I just missed the Boeing right seat last time (had no idea I would be that close to it). If I get it this time (or a wide-body right seat), will my -10 training slot go away or not? I didn't see anything in the contract about that scenario (then again there's a lot of stuff I read in the contract that I don't really understand.) The letter spoke of all the ripples when someone doesn't train for the seat they were awarded, so I just wonder how that is handled. I know training freezes apply to failures, but not sure about this situation.

Freezes only apply to a down or lateral bid that you could have previously held. In your case, if you start DC10S/O training, then they may or may not require you to finish it, if you are awarded a higher seat. You would then start training IAW your seniority. If they are really short in your seat (DC10S/O)- which is doubtful, they may delay your training to F/O and pay you passover pay.

Freezes, let's say you bid and received airbus F/O, and could have held 11 F/O. You are in class for airbus f/o and decide you want to change to 11 F/O. You can't. Your stuck for two years. If you haven't class, then you can. If you could hold 727 Capt, you could do that.

In Summary, once you have started class, you can't go sideways or backwards if you could have held the postion previously. Prior to class you can change your mind.

 

[Goose17]

my understanding...

If you were an Airbus FO and wanted to switch to MD-11 FO, you could. Once you are in the MD-11, you are THEN locked into that seat for 2 years. If you were in the DC-10 as an FO, but back bid to the SO position, you could do that too, but once you got there, you would then be locked into the SO seat for 2 years.

Nothing prevents a back bid or lateral move, but once you get there, you are stuck for 2 years.

Goose17

 

[LEROY]

I am in the same boat as "Hydraulic Pumps, Quantity & Pressure."
My DC10 S/O training starts 8 days AFTER the standing bid closes. I'm sure I'll hold F/O. But the Feb monthly bid will have already closed, and my line will have been dropped for ITU training.
I think the most likely thing would be to have us go to training so they don't have to build us a custom line.

 

[Los1]

For those of you going to the back of the -10...my impression is that if you bid the right seat of something in this bid, they will send you to school, you may or may not finish -10 plumber school though.

In the meantime I wholeheartedly agree with purple tail!! management put themselves in this situation and if we stay together we are going to be able tp exploit it big time!!! Lets show some unity and get this done NOW!
one more day of retro pay!!
Los1

 

[Spur]

Freezes, let's say you bid and received airbus F/O, and could have held 11 F/O. You are in class for airbus f/o and decide you want to change to 11 F/O. You can't. Your stuck for two years. If you haven't class, then you can. If you could hold 727 Capt, you could do that.

I think you are right and wrong here. If you are in class when a bid closes, and you bid for a seat (regardless of lateral, up, or down) that you could have held in the bid which you got your current training (or subsequent bid which closed prior to training) then you will not be awarded the new seat. But unless your current training was a down/lateral move, you are not subject to the seat freeze. I guess a good way to think of it is you can always move anywhere unless (1) You had a down/lateral bid in the last 2 years or (2) You are currently in training and could have held another seat. Then you can't go to any seat you could have held.

Also, if your down/lateral bid did not require ITU training the freeze is only 18 months.

Thats how I read it, but as crew scheduling will tell you, I am frequently very wrong...

 

[USNFDX]

I think you are right and wrong here. If you are in class when a bid closes, and you bid for a seat (regardless of lateral, up, or down) that you could have held in the bid which you got your current training (or subsequent bid which closed prior to training) then you will not be awarded the new seat. But unless your current training was a down/lateral move, you are not subject to the seat freeze. I guess a good way to think of it is you can always move anywhere unless (1) You had a down/lateral bid in the last 2 years or (2) You are currently in training and could have held another seat. Then you can't go to any seat you could have held.

Also, if your down/lateral bid did not require ITU training the freeze is only 18 months.

Thats how I read it, but as crew scheduling will tell you, I am frequently very wrong...

Spur,

I think you are right!

That's actualy what I meant to say!

 

[New FDX Guy]

Sounds like a good time to have gotten on board...confusing as heck though.

 

[fox3]

Spur,
I'm not sure you're correct or maybe I just read it wrong. Example: My sim partner during MD-11 training (F/O) can holdBoeing Captain, and bids it(the last bid we had). He is awardedBoeing Captain and drops out of MD-11 training the day before his oral. Of course, he had to talk with the CP, but hesaid no problem (although I do believe he was also awarded a trainingfailure for dropping out of 11 school).
Fox

 

[klhoard]

I don't understand why he would be "awarded" a training failure. He's not dropping out of training becuse he couldn't hack it, but to save the company from wasting training resources.
Hopefully this "training failure" won't be held against him in the future?

 

[Spur]

This is where I read it:

24.E.2. Bidding Restrictions on Subsequent Postings
During the time a pilot is in ITU training, he shall not be awarded a crew status that he could have been awarded on the posting containing the crew position for which he presently is in training, or on a subsequent posting that closed prior to the start of his training.

Could he have held 727 Capt on the bid he got the MD F/O award?

 

[PurpleTail]

The main thing to do is bid what you really want to fly. What is most commutable and which airplane/schedule will allow you the most time with your family? DON'T CHASE THE MONEY, it won't do you much good if you're divorsed.

 

[TonyC]

If you were an Airbus FO and wanted to switch to MD-11 FO, you could. Once you are in the MD-11, you are THEN locked into that seat for 2 years. If you were in the DC-10 as an FO, but back bid to the SO position, you could do that too, but once you got there, you would then be locked into the SO seat for 2 years.

Nothing prevents a back bid or lateral move, but once you get there, you are stuck for 2 years.

Goose17

OK, guys. If you've got access to the FedEx pilots' website, go take a look for yourself: Section 24.E. Filling of Vacancies - Other Crew Position Award Procedures (If you don't, I'll try to post enough so you can follow along.)

First, the definition of Lateral or Downbid is based on hourly rate. So, in order of pay: 72 SO, 10 SO, 72 FO, 10/11/30 FO, 72 CA, 10/11/30 CA

Second, the definition of Down/Lateral Bid Restriction: Unless waived by the Vice President, Flight Operations, or his designee, a pilot may not receive a permanent vacancy award based on a down/lateral bid unless he has been in his current crew status for at least 18 months.

Third, the definition of Down/Lateral Bid Freeze: A pilot who is activated in a crew status that requires ITU training based on a down/lateral bid shall be frozen in that crew status for 24 months, commencing on his actual activation date. A pilot is not eligible for a permanent crew position award requiring ITU training with a projected training date during that freeze period except under the following conditions...

So, back to Goose's example: "If you were an Airbus FO and wanted to switch to MD-11 FO,..." you would be restricted. You could not be awarded MD-11 FO (a lateral bid) unless you had been an Airbus FO for at least 18 months.

If you meet that restriction, you can be awarded the MD-11 FO crew position. Once you're activated as an MD-11 FO, you are then frozen for 24 months. If you could hold A380 Captain at $2000 an hour the very next month, too bad - - you're stuck where you are for 24 months. There is one exception that would release you from the freeze, though. (Well, several, but only one of interest here.) "A pilot who down bid in his aircraft to a lower crew seat is eligible for an award of a crew position in a higher crew seat in the same aircraft type during the time of his freeze." So, if you bid from DC-10 FO to DC-10 SO, you could get an award during the period of the freeze for DC-10 FO, but not MD-11 FO.


Now, don't confuse the Down/Lateral Bid Restriction or Down/Lateral Bid Freeze with the Bidding Restrictions on Subsequent Postings:
During the time a pilot is in ITU training, he shall not be awarded a crew status that he could have been awarded on the posting containing the crew position for which he presently is in training, or on a subsequent posting that closed prior to the start of his training.

This restriction is that to which Spur refers, and was brought up to answer the questions of 2Aoff1Bon and LEROY. Since they could not hold 72 FO in the previous bids, there is no "Bidding Restriction on Subsequent Postings" that applies. IF (and it looks very likely) they are awarded a higher seat position on THIS posting, that doesn't take away the position that they were previously awarded (DC-10 SO). The question they asked is, essentially, "Would I still go to DC-10 SO school?" That's where Cancellation of Awards comes into play. (That's 24.E.4 for those of you who are following along at home. )

Cancellation of Awards: The Company may cancel an award/assignment of a crew position in reverse seniority order provided it does so at least 30 days prior to the pilot's scheduled training date.

It would appear, then, that the ITU training that begins up to 30 days after this Vacancy Posting closes will continue as scheduled. The twist I see is the class that starts more than 30 days later. If the Company decides to cancel those awards, there could be a string of Passover Pay triggers.

Now, who has that LOA handy?

 

[TonyC]

Spur,
I'm not sure you're correct or maybe I just read it wrong. Example: My sim partner during MD-11 training (F/O) can hold Boeing Captain, and bids it(the last bid we had). He is awarded Boeing Captain and drops out of MD-11 training the day before his oral. Of course, he had to talk with the CP, but he said no problem (although I do believe he was also awarded a trainingfailure for dropping out of 11 school).
Fox

There is no provision in the Agreement of which I am aware that would relieve one of the responsibility to complete the training which he bid and was awarded, i.e., the MD-11 FO position, even if there is a Vacancy Posting during the course of that training where he receives an award for a position that pays more, i.e., 727 CAPT. That simply secures him a position in a line arranged by seniority to train in that new position. That may mean that he completes the training in the first position only to turn right around and begin another training program. It would seem that common sense might come into play here, but think about it - - when was the last time common sense won the day in matters of Contract, huh?

Apparently, there was some exercise of judgment on the part of the pilot and the Chief Pilot to allow him to drop out of the MD-11 FO ITU, as I dont see any part of the contract that would by specific language allow it. If indeed the pilot received some punitive action in the process, it's no surprise. Disappointing, but not surprising. Every opportunity to punish the pilot...


Don't be fooled by the folksy e-mails, he's not your friend.

 

[skytrain]

TonyC, thanks for speaking in laymen terms! Now I know who to go to w/ any question re: our contract. Unfortunately, I never took a class in either Latin or Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Consequently, I ride the short bus when trying to decipher what the hell parts of our CBA really mean.

 

[FedEx1]

Too bad I DIDN'T stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night....

...Or I might have this all figured out.

Tony

I called my ALPA rep when the new seat bid came out, since I am scheduled for ITU in Feb (it is already on my schedule), but will be able to hold a higher seat in this next round. (I could not hold anything higher on previous bids.) He said that it is the company's discretion on whether or not I go to the original training slot- if the powers that be side with Jack, I may not. (That would add one of those extra training events he was complaining about.) I have to wait and see after the bid closes.

So, either he was wrong, or we all flunk law school.

I really don't mind the extra training cycle, as much as it can be a pain in the a$$. But it would be a huge waste of money and time for the company.

Fedex1

 

[TonyC]

...Or I might have this all figured out.

Tony

I called my ALPA rep when the new seat bid came out, since I am scheduled for ITU in Feb (it is already on my schedule), but will be able to hold a higher seat in this next round. (I could not hold anything higher on previous bids.) He said that it is the company's discretion on whether or not I go to the original training slot- if the powers that be side with Jack, I may not. (That would add one of those extra training events he was complaining about.) I have to wait and see after the bid closes.

So, either he was wrong, or we all flunk law school.

Even ALPA Reps can make mistakes, honest mistakes, and they can't be expected to be walking experts on each and every nuance of the CBA. I studied the contract before I spoke up about the issue, even though I have read it before and thought I already knew the correct answer. If the Company cancels your February training, they are depriving you of your awarded crew position and the pay raise that entails. I don't see how that is allowed in the Contract. If it's detrimental to the pilot and it's not allowed in the contract, it would deserve the support of the Union to dispute.

I can see how the Union might support a plan to cancel the training slots and pay passover pay beginning at the scheduled activation date, but that, too, would need be negotiated.

Negotiated... speaking of negotiations, if they want something, they can get their tails in gear. We've been engaged in this process for nearly a year.

Go to class - - I'm startin' on 2 Feb.

31 Jan, 1 Feb, 2 Feb, ... they're all the same... each one is just

ONE MORE DAY OF RETRO PAY

 

[2Aoff1Bon]

Tony,

Thanks for the explanation. It sounds like I am going to training, ... or maybe not. Depending on what happens with the bid, there is one scenario where I would want to start next month, and one where I wouldn't. Again, thanks for the good info, but Skytrain put it well regarding the "short bus" on matters relating to the contract. I'm sitting right behind him on the bus!