I've gotta get feedback on this!

[mcjohn]

In regards to all the pay for training disscusion I came across all this and it really has me thinking. If all this animosity is based on the 2nd quote than shouldn't this be resolved or me corrected?

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hey mcjohn, serious question. Why would you want to pay for a job: in an industry that has never made a profit, in an industry where there has always been an oversupply of qualified labor, in an industry where the vast majority of skilled labor (pilots) works at or near the poverty level, in an industry that has taken massive job reductions in the recent past, in an industry where labor management relations are historically bad, in an industry where a significant percentage of workers are forced to retire early because of medical reasons, in an industry where your lively hood depends upon the ability to pass a checkride every six months, etc, etc, etc??????????????????????????????????



Because I love to fly more than anything else and l love pressing buttons, dealing with the controls, and being in command of a mechanical bird.
Even if I somehow end up sick of my job, I would still know that I specialize in doing something that I'm good at.


Quote:
Originally Posted by
Here's the only real argument against buying a job. When you buy a job, all you really do is send a message to the entire world of airline managers that pilots will do anything to be in the cockpit. The next thing you know, Delta will be asking pilots for a 40% paycut. Oh wait, they already have.

Thanks for nothing, all of you boys who brought your own vasoline. Now those of us who never bent over, have to take pay cuts because of your zeal to fly a jet. Kiss my grits.

Calvin


O.K. Something is starting to become apparent. Some pilots have emotional issues with the state of the industry they're trapped in and need something to target. Forget about terrorism, Sept. 11, and fuel costs! It's those darn PFT pilots screwing everything up. Come on, anyone can see through this. And another note to take is that the exact same thing that's screwing up the airlines, is also screwing the flight schools (cost of operation) and the guys are coming out with 50+ grand in debt. Therefore, places like Gulfstream become way more attractive. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
.

 

[TIGV]

Pay for Training undermines everything your fellow pilots and their Unions are trying to achieve, I went to work for Trans States way back when because they were one of the only commuters not requiring pay for training, I refuse to fuel the PFT industry.
You are correct, it is wrong to blame PFT on the state of the Industry but it is without a doubt yet another nail in the coffin.
In my opinion, fueling the PFT Industry shows lack of self respect and Integrity and you are probably made of the same clay as the guy that jumps the picket line when strike time rolls around and I don't need you on the property.

Just my .02.

 

[shamrock]

Sound like you have already decided that you want to do it and are looking to justify it. Just go to Gulfstream and get it over with. You too can be a First Officer in Training and wear a neat oversized hat.

You are PAYING to do a job that you should be PAID to do. And the $8 an hour doesn't count.

The animosity you speak of comes from the fact that it is nearly impossible to make improvements to this career when there are people who will not only do the job for less money, but are willing to PAY for the privilege.

Again, you are PAYING to TO DO A JOB that you should be PAID to do. Pretty simple.

 

[mcjohn]

Pay for Training undermines everything your fellow pilots and their Unions are trying to achieve, I went to work for Trans States way back when because they were one of the only commuters not requiring pay for training, I refuse to fuel the PFT industry.

Insightful info, Thanks. Undermining what the unions are trying to achieve does not lend itself to much self respect. I don't want to do that. But I can't get past the fact that the industry is not well and that these pay cuts are supposedly what keep a company from filing bankrupt. If the money is not there what is the point in fighting for it? Supply and demand would dictate that the most entitled pilots get to go work for the healthy, successful airlines while everyone else suffers along with the industry. It really sucks and seems to be a result of Sept.11, fuel, and insurance costs. If flight schools were the slightest bit affordable I would prefer to go to one and instruct, pay my dues, and be on my way. Post Sept. 11 training costs make that impossible for most of us non-rich wannabees. It seems like many of the kids recently coming out of Flight Safety and the Delta Connection type places must have millionair parents to pay their way. It's almost like the fresh pilots at an interview that don't offend the pilots conducting the interview that climbed the ladder the normal pre Sept. 11 way, may be some of those guys born with a silver spoon up their tail who could afford a 50+grand Delta Connection, Flight Safety type education. For the rest of us poor folk the only option is to train at the small FBO's over a long period of time (2-3 years paying cash out of pocket) just to get the prerequisites for a place like Gulfstream (multi,instrument,commercial). Or go to the best deal quickie places like AllATPs and still spend 40+grand for 90 days of training and then begin traveling anywhere in the US to pick up an instruction job. It's difficult to catch up. All this may explain why so many aspiring pilots are attracted to a place that does Pay for Training programs. It kind of levels the post 9/11 playing field and allows some people to catch up.
Question, Were these PFT places popular before Sept. 11 and before the airlines were not doing well. If they were then my point may not be as valid.
-John

 

[mcjohn]

Sound like you have already decided that you want to do it and are looking to justify it. Just go to Gulfstream and get it over with. You too can be a First Officer in Training and wear a neat oversized hat.

You are PAYING to do a job that you should be PAID to do. And the $8 an hour doesn't count.

The animosity you speak of comes from the fact that it is nearly impossible to make improvements to this career when there are people who will not only do the job for less money, but are willing to PAY for the privilege.

Again, you are PAYING to TO DO A JOB that you should be PAID to do. Pretty simple.

I hate those hats! I just want to fly man. I just received a call from a guy who wants me to fly his plane down for maintenance in the morning. I will not get paid of course (no commercial yet) and I'll have to wait around for hours while they perform the work, but I'll be able to log a couple hours x-country. He only called me because I rented his plane to get my instrument and because he wants a bargin. He doesn't want to pay a commercial ferry pilot. Seems kind of similar to the Gulfstream set up and not so evil. But, honestly I don't want to go to a place that will scar my reputation so I'm scrambling to try and figure something else out before I sell my soul to the devil.

 

[lowtimeguy]

Dude, wake up.

Are you guaranteed a job?

THE "Most Frequently Asked Questions" about THE FIRST OFFICER COURSE

1. Will I really get hired by the airline?
Answer: If you have good evaluation reports from the check pilots and the captains that you fly with during the programmed 250 hours, then you will be considered for a permanent First Officer position.

What if you wash out? What if it takes longer than they say? What if it costs more than estimated?
What if you do everything on time and in good form and they "consider" you, but then decide not to hire you?

Why do you think they want the entire lump sum up front?

PFT ethics aside, this is not a wise move, in my opinion.

 

[mattpilot]

So.... how does one go about getting a job as a captain for Gulfstream air?

 

[Brett Hull]

Did anyone ever listen to the Bob and Tom show on the radio? They used to do a skit where Marge Schott, the mouthy former, and now deceased, owner of the Cincinnati Reds interviewed people. The interviewee would make a completely assinine comment and Marge's response went like this (in a sarcastic tone)...

I just want to fly man.

Well there......you.......go....

If you "just want to fly, man", go rent a 172. The big boys want to earn a decent living at this. Just wanting to fly doesn't pay the mortgage.

 

[vossdr1]

pft

Who goes to PFT? Is it seasoned professionals with 1000s of hours? No, it is young aspiring pilots.

The young aspiring pilots really have no idea what working in anairplane is like. You have no perspecitive on it. You have no idea whatit is like to be away from family for extended periods. You have noidea what it is like to (fill in any downside of a professionalaviator's career). All the young aspiring pilots (YAP) know is thatthey love to fly. The YAPs always pay when they fly, because they arepaying for their certificates. This is all the YAP knows. So when someenterprising airline official says that a YAP can do the same at hisairline, they jump at the chance. YAPs really do a great disservice tothemselves and the rest of pilots. When you are in a cockpit, how muchdo you really contribute to the flight? In fact, the captain should begetting instructor pay on top of his/her regular salary. Why notinstruct, or do aerial photography, or traffic watch, or something thatyou actually can do? Build the time. Add to your experience. Contributeto the flying community instead of paying to jump to the front of theline.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Pay for Training undermines everything your fellow pilots and their Unions are trying to achieve, I went to work for Trans States way back when because they were one of the only commuters not requiring pay for training, I refuse to fuel the PFT industry.
You are correct, it is wrong to blame PFT on the state of the Industry but it is without a doubt yet another nail in the coffin.
In my opinion, fueling the PFT Industry shows lack of self respect and Integrity and you are probably made of the same clay as the guy that jumps the picket line when strike time rolls around and I don't need you on the property.

Just my .02.

TIGV,
So let me get this straight. You did your part to hold up the profession by going to work for Hulas Konodia (Sp?) Hulas has done far more to lower the profession than PFT. What good does it do to boycott PFT carriers only to go to work for a carrier that pays less than most other carriers. Sounds like you yourself have done your part, as have most of us, to lower the pay. You just want to blame it on someone else.

 

[TIGV]

Not quite my friend.

TIGV,
So let me get this straight. You did your part to hold up the profession by going to work for Hulas Konodia (Sp?) Hulas has done far more to lower the profession than PFT. What good does it do to boycott PFT carriers only to go to work for a carrier that pays less than most other carriers. Sounds like you yourself have done your part, as have most of us, to lower the pay. You just want to blame it on someone else.

Actually my brother, I waited an extra 2 years to get the time required to get hired by sweet Uncle Hulas, that's 2 years of flight instructing at 12K a year working 7 days a week, I coulda gotten a loan and hit Contraceptal Express but decided I didn't want to fuel the PFT Industry as a matter of Integrity.
Hulas paid me back my not allowing the last upgrade class on the J-32 to complete IOE and I was too Junior to bid transition to any other equipt, they offered me right seat Jungle-jet with a 2 year seat lock and right back into training at 60 hr a month min guarantee, no per diem and noone paying my rent, as I recall the newbies back then were living it up in the Howard Johnson while in training and were also receiving 24 hr per diem.
I remember being called in to that little meeting at the Ho-Jo while in IOE in my sparkly Capt. Uniform, looking forward to getting done with IOE and getting my first big Capt. check, as I remember: would have been somewhere around 24K a year on the old contract.
Well yup, you're right I did my part, threw my new hat at the then CP on the J-32 program demanded to know where the hell the union was , muttered multiple obscenities and gave my 2 week notice, which I spent taxiing Junkstreams from the line to the MX hangar to make a little extra coin to pay to send resumes.

Uncle Hulas paid for my type, who paid for yours ?

It aint a perfect world but it is real simple, keep your integrity intact and always remember the famous J. Lennon Quote to get you by:

" Life's a shi t sandwich....The more bread you got..The less shi t you eat."

 

[InclusiveScope]

Actually my brother, I waited an extra 2 years to get the time required to get hired by sweet Uncle Hulas, that's 2 years of flight instructing at 12K a year working 7 days a week, I coulda gotten a loan and hit Contraceptal Express but decided I didn't want to fuel the PFT Industry as a matter of Integrity.
Hulas paid me back my not allowing the last upgrade class on the J-32 to complete IOE and I was too Junior to bid transition to any other equipt, they offered me right seat Jungle-jet with a 2 year seat lock and right back into training at 60 hr a month min guarantee, no per diem and noone paying my rent, as I recall the newbies back then were living it up in the Howard Johnson while in training and were also receiving 24 hr per diem.
I remember being called in to that little meeting at the Ho-Jo while in IOE in my sparkly Capt. Uniform, looking forward to getting done with IOE and getting my first big Capt. check, as I remember: would have been somewhere around 24K a year on the old contract.
Well yup, you're right I did my part, threw my new hat at the then CP on the J-32 program demanded to know where the hell the union was , muttered multiple obscenities and gave my 2 week notice, which I spent taxiing Junkstreams from the line to the MX hangar to make a little extra coin to pay to send resumes.

Uncle Hulas paid for my type, who paid for yours ?

It aint a perfect world but it is real simple, keep your integrity intact and always remember the famous J. Lennon Quote to get you by:

" Life's a shi t sandwich....The more bread you got..The less shi t you eat."

Sounds to me like you "paid for it" also. Thanks for helping me to make my point. "PFT" comes in many forms. Some just don't admit that they too participated in this problem. Sounds like you were just as much of a whore - just wore a different dress. Where are you now if I may ask?

 

[TIGV]

PM If you would like more information.
I won't allow you to degenerate the thread into mindlessness, in any event the moderator will delete it when it is perceived that nothing of any use is being added, I related my experiences and have nothing more to add.

Cheers

Marc.

 

[:-)]

Because I love to fly more than anything else and l love pressing buttons, dealing with the controls, and being in command of a mechanical bird.
Even if I somehow end up sick of my job, I would still know that I specialize in doing something that I'm good at.

Go buy yourself a Bonanza if you just love to fly. You can be good at something you love doing and you can even do it on your own schedule

O.K. Something is starting to become apparent. Some pilots have emotional issues with the state of the industry they're trapped in and need something to target. Forget about terrorism, Sept. 11, and fuel costs! It's those darn PFT pilots screwing everything up. Come on, anyone can see through this. And another note to take is that the exact same thing that's screwing up the airlines, is also screwing the flight schools (cost of operation) and the guys are coming out with 50+ grand in debt. Therefore, places like Gulfstream become way more attractive. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong and don't want to be corrected. Otherwise you'd have given up on this before starting duplicate strings in you quest for "knowledge"

Calvin, who might write more later if I feel like wasting any more time.