I've been making deposits in the bank of experience: education & training- CA Sully

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Posts
13,422
Total Time
X>X
I've been making deposits in the bank of experience: education & training- CA Sully

I've been making small regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training," said US Airways Capt. "Sully".
We all know there are too many pilots out there that put no deposits in the bank of experience. In fact we see the attitudes that the last 8 years have contributed...

"I'll work harder when they pay me more"

"I only do the minimum to get by"

"I never think about flying when I am off"


The 150 pax were lucky it was Sully and Skiles and not Joe Pilot or Mr Bad Attitude... (yeah you and I have both flown with them....)

In addition what of that experience? In fact one could say that if Sully and Skiles could easily have found employment equal to flying they would have dumped USAIR a long time ago. One could even say they are indentured.....

However, what is this career coming to when a doctor, lawyer or vacuum cleaner sales man can go from zero time to right seat in a CRJ in six months? Tired of rectal exams? Be a pilot!

We must get wages up. How do we do that? Hope management and gov't are in a good mood?








Capt. Sully Worried About Airline Industry

Feb. 10, 2009 (CBS) The amazing story of US Airways Flight 1549 might have frequent fliers thinking more about something often taken for granted: the experience of the pilot. The captain of Flight 1549 told CBS News anchor Katie Couric that he's concerned the industry will soon have trouble attracting experienced pilots. The reason? Money.


"One way of looking at this might be that, for 42 years, I've been making small regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training," said US Airways Capt. Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger. "And on January 15, the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal."

Sullenberger is uncharacteristically worried. He's worried that when it comes to the bank of experience for airline pilots, there may someday be a significant shortage.

"I don't know a single professional pilot who would recommend that their children follow in their footsteps," he said.

There was a time when airline pilot was a coveted job - glamorous, respected, with plenty of benefits.

But now: "The airline employees have been hit by an economic tsunami. Pay cuts, loss of pensions, increased hours every day, days per week, days per month," Sullenberger said. "It's a heavy burden."

Last year alone, more than 6,000 commercial pilots were either furloughed or permanently laid off.

Couric said: "What effect do you think that is having on the industry itself and on the people's it's attracting?"

"I know some of our pilots, who have been laid off, have chosen not to return," Sullenberger said. "I can speak personally, for me and my family, that my decision to remain in this profession that I love has come at a cost to me and my family."

Sully says five years ago he and the rest of his fellow pilots at US Airways gave back almost $6.8 billion in pension, wages and other concessions, to keep the airline flying.

And while annual salaries can average anywhere from $37,000 for a first officer and well into the six figures for a captain, the shrinking workforce means pilots are often spread very thin.

As Capt. James Ray of the U.S. Airline Pilots Association said: "Twenty years ago, the average airline pilot would maybe work, oh, 70 to 80 hours, about three times a month. Now, that pilot's working 70 to 80 hours every week," he said.

"It started with deregulation in 1978. The onset of low-cost carriers really started to put stress on the system," said Peter Goelz, the former managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board. "Then you couple that with 9/11, the spike in fuel costs, you've really got the prescription for a very challenged industry."

The majority of pilots hired today are civilians coming out of flight school, who began their career at smaller airlines. And few have the military background Sullenberger had flying for the Air Force.

In 1992, roughly 90 percent of those hired by major carriers had flown for the military. By last year, fewer than 30 percent had.

"I think that there will always be people who want to do this," Sullenberger said. "It just may not be the same people who are doing it now."

"Are you concerned that that means if another situation like this one comes up in the future, you won't have as qualified a pilot flying the plane?" Couric asked.

"That just follows doesn't it?" Sullenberger said.

But despite the harsh economic realities, for the first time in jet aviation history, U.S. commercial carriers have gone two consecutive years without a crash fatality.

When contracted about Sullenberger's concerns, the Air Transport Association, which represents the principle U.S. carriers, had no comment.

The story of Flight 1549 has been a boost to the country. But it's also given those who work in the struggling industry a shot in the arm.

"Probably the most important words I've heard have been from my peers. That I have made them proud," Sullenberger said. "That they feel pride in themselves - a pride in their profession they hadn't felt for years. Sometimes decades. And they also tell me, especially ones at my airline who know me, that they were glad that I was the one flying that flight that day."

"Why does that make you feel so good?" Couric said.

"Their praise isn't given easily or readily," Sullenberger said.

But this pilot hopes his moment in the spotlight will remind the airlines - and those who fly - that attracting those with the right stuff may make all the difference.
 

Crzipilot

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2002
Posts
1,057
Total Time
10k+
Wow, 1 man has stated more for this industry then his EX Union has in about 20 years........
 

SpauldingSmails

Aboard the sloop.
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Posts
1,278
Total Time
>7000
Sully doesn't need the flight director. Sully IS the FLIGHT DIRECTOR.
 

livin'thesim

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Posts
926
Total Time
.
Sadly there seems to be an overtone in this transcript that lack of military experience is a bad thing, and represents a deficient airman.

That may have been the writer's addition, at least from my read of it.

The problem here is that the public could read into statements like this that the air transportation system has an inherent safety issue due to the small number of ex-military pilots flying for the airlines.

I don't want to restart the Civ vs. Mil debate here, but I wish we could once and for all dispense with the idea that military pilots have some sort of secret ingredient that makes them a universally superior choice for civilian 121 operations.

The public, of course, is eager to be an expert on everything, so they are very happy to embrace such ideas without much reflection.
 
Last edited:

ATRCAPT

Livin' the...dream?
Joined
Jun 3, 2003
Posts
490
Total Time
15Kish
Sadly there seems to be an overtone in this transcript that lack of military experience is a bad thing, and represents a deficient airman.

That may have been the writer's addition, at least from my read of it.

The problem here is that the public could read into statements like this that the air transportation system has an inherent safety issue due to the small number of ex-military pilots flying for the airlines.

I don't want to restart the Civ vs. Mil debate here, but I wish we could once and for all dispense with the idea that military pilots have some sort of secret ingredient that makes them a universally superior choice for civilian 121 operations.

The public, of course, is eager to be an expert on everything, so they are very happy to embrace such ideas without much reflection.
Yup...
 

vetrider

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2005
Posts
950
Total Time
10k +
Now Sully better hope he doesn't dick something up, seeing as the whole world has now made him out to be fighter jock superman. I don't mean that as a slur against Sully, far from it, he's a good man and aviator, its directed more at the population at large. He's human, just like we all are.
 
Last edited:

SpauldingSmails

Aboard the sloop.
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Posts
1,278
Total Time
>7000
Now Sully better hope he doesn't dick something up, seeing as the whole world has now made him out to be fighter jock superman. I don't mean that as a slur against Sully, far from it, he's a good man and aviator, its directed more at the population at large. He's human, just like we all are.

Yeah I second the notion... it's almost become a joke. I get the gate agents to laugh when we're running behind schedule... "yeah yeah, I know Sully would have gotten it out on time."
 

JungleJett

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
Posts
1,111
Total Time
1
Unfortunately, if you just target the pay, you will continue to lose. It is about quality of life, work rules, benefits, schedule, advancement, fulfillment, personal satisfaction...

Why does a Doc or lawyer wanna fly..because it is fun. Six months later, they realize it is not nearly as glamorous as everybody says it is and then they leave.

Crappy contracts, poor management, crap schedules, stale growth, closed bases, continual threats or actual furloughs, poor representation..all add up to lackluster performance and a sharp increase in I-could-give-a-rats-arse. I reached my limit and decided it was time to become a happy pilot again, so I left it all behind and have never been happier.

I know very few happy airline pilots. In fact, when I was walking through Salt Lake the other day, the only smiles I saw on uniformed faces was on the regional pilots and crews. The rest of the crews looked like someone just shot their dog and screwed their spouses...and I had a four hour layover.

Like someone once told me...it is a great profession but a crappy career.

Doctors may get tired of looking at rectums, but it sure beats getting a shaft stuck up yours every time you turn around by everyone around you..including those who are supposed to protect you.
 

hockeypilot44

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Posts
893
Total Time
Sadly there seems to be an overtone in this transcript that lack of military experience is a bad thing, and represents a deficient airman.

That may have been the writer's addition, at least from my read of it.

The problem here is that the public could read into statements like this that the air transportation system has an inherent safety issue due to the small number of ex-military pilots flying for the airlines.

I don't want to restart the Civ vs. Mil debate here, but I wish we could once and for all dispense with the idea that military pilots have some sort of secret ingredient that makes them a universally superior choice for civilian 121 operations.

The public, of course, is eager to be an expert on everything, so they are very happy to embrace such ideas without much reflection.
The military has standards. Anyone cannot be a military pilot. ANYONE and I mean ANYONE can go to a pilot factory like Gulfstream or Delta Connection Academy and get all their ratings. A few years ago, that same person could get hired at the regional of his/her choice with just 250 hours of total flight time. If he/she failed a checkride, he/she would just take it again until he/she got it right. I do not even know why the FAA gives written exams since we just memorize the test. Hell, there are some well known places where you are given the answers while taking the test. I would rather have the average military pilot flying me over the average non-military pilot. The newer pilots have horrible judgement. Who in their right mind would go 100k in debt to get a job that starts at $18,000/year and tops out at about $70,000/year (I do not count per diem or anything more than 1,000 hours a year since that is all you're allowed to fly)? Pilots are a pathetic group.
 

Dan Roman

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2004
Posts
2,815
Total Time
19000
The military has standards. Anyone cannot be a military pilot. ANYONE and I mean ANYONE can go to a pilot factory like Gulfstream or Delta Connection Academy and get all their ratings. A few years ago, that same person could get hired at the regional of his/her choice with just 250 hours of total flight time. If he/she failed a checkride, he/she would just take it again until he/she got it right. I do not even know why the FAA gives written exams since we just memorize the test. Hell, there are some well known places where you are given the answers while taking the test. I would rather have the average military pilot flying me over the average non-military pilot. The newer pilots have horrible judgement. Who in their right mind would go 100k in debt to get a job that starts at $18,000/year and tops out at about $70,000/year (I do not count per diem or anything more than 1,000 hours a year since that is all you're allowed to fly)? Pilots are a pathetic group.

Most of the pilots who have been in this business long enough to have flown with a lot of different crewmembers come to realize that a good pilot is a good pilot. It has little to do with his background, and everything to do with his attitude. Every once in awhile you come across a military pilot that thinks "military pilots are better" or a civilian pilot that thinks "civilian pilots are better". Invariably those individuals are actually weaker than most of their counterparts. Their lack of perspective seems to lend itself to poor multi crew cockpit skills.
 

turbodriver

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Posts
396
Total Time
enough
Sully is full of it. Yeah, I said it. It follows that civi pilots have less experience?!?

You military knuckleheads need to get off your high horse. If the service is so damm great, then why'd you leave?
 

Dan Roman

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2004
Posts
2,815
Total Time
19000
Interesting bit of trivia. About 20 years ago DAL went through a spat of so many inflight problems in a short period of time that they were investigated by the FAA.
They crashed an L 1011 by landing in a thunderstorm, a crew shutdown the wrong engine on a L 1011 departing lax and they almost went in the drink, multiple incidents of landing at the wrong airport, etc.
The FAA finding was essentially "too many former fighter pilots at DAL' Their experience was not transfering well into the cockpit of a civilian airliner and they were not working well as a crew. So DAL had to revamp their CRM training as a result of the FAA's findings.
 
Last edited:

hockeypilot44

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Posts
893
Total Time
Sully is full of it. Yeah, I said it. It follows that civi pilots have less experience?!?

You military knuckleheads need to get off your high horse. If the service is so damm great, then why'd you leave?
They're not leaving anymore. They used to leave because the airlines paid more. This is not the case. The only military pilots that are leaving are the ones that have enough years of service to collect a pension.
 

Singlecoil

I don't reMember
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Posts
1,273
Total Time
8760
Most of the pilots who have been in this business long enough to have flown with a lot of different crewmembers come to realize that a good pilot is a good pilot. It has little to do with his background, and everything to do with his attitude. Every once in awhile you come across a military pilot that thinks "military pilots are better" or a civilian pilot that thinks "civilian pilots are better". Invariably those individuals are actually weaker than most of their counterparts. Their lack of perspective seems to lend itself to poor multi crew cockpit skills.
Ding! We have a winner.

I have flown with pilots right out of UND who had better skills than senior captains that I fly with now at a "major", civilian or military. What Dan says above is so true. If you are looking intensely at someones background like that it is probably due to insecurity, and that is probably due to weak flying skills. Every airline and every different country's military has people who were born to do it, and people who need extra time to get up to speed. Any of the above can shine on any given day, and any of the above can be that extra link in the chain.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Posts
13,422
Total Time
X>X
Once again.... as usual... the point on FI is missed....

If we can get the publics attention that there is an experience problem, perhaps we can change it.....

Anybody interested in doing that with compensation packages?
 

inline

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 26, 2001
Posts
1,320
Total Time
19000+
Oh, so there is the implication that fewer military pilots means unsafe airlines. Good grief. Military pilots are good but they're no better than properly trained civilians.
 

Reebo

Still working for HK
Joined
Dec 1, 2001
Posts
491
Total Time
15,000
Capt. Sully Worried About Airline Industry

Feb. 10, 2009 (CBS) The amazing story of US Airways Flight 1549 might have frequent fliers thinking more about something often taken for granted: the experience of the pilot. The captain of Flight 1549 told CBS News anchor Katie Couric that he's concerned the industry will soon have trouble attracting experienced pilots. The reason? Money.


"One way of looking at this might be that, for 42 years, I've been making small regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training," said US Airways Capt. Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger. "And on January 15, the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal."

Sullenberger is uncharacteristically worried. He's worried that when it comes to the bank of experience for airline pilots, there may someday be a significant shortage.

"I don't know a single professional pilot who would recommend that their children follow in their footsteps," he said.

There was a time when airline pilot was a coveted job - glamorous, respected, with plenty of benefits.

But now: "The airline employees have been hit by an economic tsunami. Pay cuts, loss of pensions, increased hours every day, days per week, days per month," Sullenberger said. "It's a heavy burden."

Last year alone, more than 6,000 commercial pilots were either furloughed or permanently laid off.

Couric said: "What effect do you think that is having on the industry itself and on the people's it's attracting?"

"I know some of our pilots, who have been laid off, have chosen not to return," Sullenberger said. "I can speak personally, for me and my family, that my decision to remain in this profession that I love has come at a cost to me and my family."

Sully says five years ago he and the rest of his fellow pilots at US Airways gave back almost $6.8 billion in pension, wages and other concessions, to keep the airline flying.

And while annual salaries can average anywhere from $37,000 for a first officer and well into the six figures for a captain, the shrinking workforce means pilots are often spread very thin.

As Capt. James Ray of the U.S. Airline Pilots Association said: "Twenty years ago, the average airline pilot would maybe work, oh, 70 to 80 hours, about three times a month. Now, that pilot's working 70 to 80 hours every week," he said.

"It started with deregulation in 1978. The onset of low-cost carriers really started to put stress on the system," said Peter Goelz, the former managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board. "Then you couple that with 9/11, the spike in fuel costs, you've really got the prescription for a very challenged industry."

The majority of pilots hired today are civilians coming out of flight school, who began their career at smaller airlines. And few have the military background Sullenberger had flying for the Air Force.

In 1992, roughly 90 percent of those hired by major carriers had flown for the military. By last year, fewer than 30 percent had.

"I think that there will always be people who want to do this," Sullenberger said. "It just may not be the same people who are doing it now."

"Are you concerned that that means if another situation like this one comes up in the future, you won't have as qualified a pilot flying the plane?" Couric asked.

"That just follows doesn't it?" Sullenberger said.

But despite the harsh economic realities, for the first time in jet aviation history, U.S. commercial carriers have gone two consecutive years without a crash fatality.

When contracted about Sullenberger's concerns, the Air Transport Association, which represents the principle U.S. carriers, had no comment.

The story of Flight 1549 has been a boost to the country. But it's also given those who work in the struggling industry a shot in the arm.

"Probably the most important words I've heard have been from my peers. That I have made them proud," Sullenberger said. "That they feel pride in themselves - a pride in their profession they hadn't felt for years. Sometimes decades. And they also tell me, especially ones at my airline who know me, that they were glad that I was the one flying that flight that day."

"Why does that make you feel so good?" Couric said.

"Their praise isn't given easily or readily," Sullenberger said.

But this pilot hopes his moment in the spotlight will remind the airlines - and those who fly - that attracting those with the right stuff may make all the difference.

It only took 48 hours :(
 

Turtle21

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 8, 2007
Posts
1,683
Total Time
lots
Sully is full of it. Yeah, I said it. It follows that civi pilots have less experience?!?

You military knuckleheads need to get off your high horse. If the service is so damm great, then why'd you leave?
Well duh, a Marine isn't happy unless he can claim his job is tougher and his circumstances suck worse than everyone else's. So Marine aviators are leaving the Marines in droves to become civilian aviators... because it sucks the most. :D
 

JungleJett

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
Posts
1,111
Total Time
1
Uh...I think Sully was AF.


Rez, how will your plan work? I will accept a PP presentation.
 
Top