It's Time for a Minimum Wage for Airline Pilots

[IBNAV8R]

Sorry, state work laws do not apply. There is federal preemption. Look up Fitzgerald v. SkyWest.

 

[Bringupthebird]

As the commodity nature of the airline business is rapidly headed towards the inevitable introduction of UAV's, pilot pay will continue to plummet. If folks could get on a UAV to Orlando for $40 they'd do it in a heartbeat.

Perhaps their last one, but a heartbeat nonetheless.

 

[RedDogC130]

Negative.

You and many others of the 20th Century had the ability to by pass the regionals and make it to a major.

The future of the air line pilot profession will be shouldered by the regionals. Your FOs at SWA will be regional pilots.... most likely RJ Captains who know their stuff......

Most people who don't know who ASA, MESA or who SkyWest is... it is eaiser to say Delta or Delta Connection.....

If pilots want to go to SWA or DAL they are going to have to go to the regionals... it is really the only game in town.....

I would have to disagree that the regioanls are the only game in town.....I got my commercial license at the end of 1999. I never had to go to a regional and took a different route....flying freight...some part0time charter and then joined the military part-time. It is not an issue of how one gets to where they want to be....I am just tired of reading how bad it is a xyz yet these are the same people who apply to xyz knowing what is out there and still complain....do I feel bad...yes and no...but do some research before you make a decision and stick to it and stop complaining and do something about it....I understand it is a complex industry but I guess in the end we should just thank the pilots of the legacies for making this mess in the first place...sorry for the ramble

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I did freight as you did... but the MIL wasn't in my future... Even so, the MIL isn't going to be the prep school for SWA and other major carriers. As you know the MIL is for defense, not an airline pipeline. I had to go regional... no other choice.. as it will be for so many....

In addition, no one really tells these guys how the regionals are going to be... Who is going to do it? You? You Mr. Cohen? I have more responsibility here.... oops, sorry got carried away...

Fact is all of us, including SWA need to embrace the regional guys for the future of the profession. Without them, no one is going to sling gear for us.... ... or even worse... the FOs that we do get are going to have thick accents and working papers.

Another issue: Currently SWA and the majors enjoy the fact that applicants are getting experience somewhere else: the regionals and MIL. They don't have to train and school applicants on how to fly. It is really just a geek and ass check. After a couple of years in the regionals or MIL... it is obvious you can fly.

However, if the push is out there... for the legacies to start flying regional jets, where is the training time going to come from? The Golden age of the FE watching the way it was done is over....

May we live in interesting times...

 

[RedDogC130]

I guess in some ways I agree but the fact of the matter is that the creations of the regional system screwed this industry and will continue forever now. We better preay that the regionals do not become the majority because there goes you leverage and we will all be working for $60 an hour......being an airline pilot does not seem very good when you are making $40K a year driving a RAV 4....doing if for the flying left me a long time ago...now it is for the $$$ and the ease of the job.

 

[Erlanger]

Sorry, state work laws do not apply. There is federal preemption. Look up Fitzgerald v. SkyWest.

Affirming a lower court's ruling, a California appeals court has said SkyWest Airlines Inc.'s method for paying flight attendants does not violate California's minimum wage, meal and rest breaks, and overtime wage requirements.

 

[ATR Pirate]

if passengers would pay a fair price for tickets, maybe we could restore the industry to what it used to be..now everyone hates flying and just complain about all the things the airlines lack..its costs the same today to fly new york to LA as it did in the 1970's..maybe less! pilot quality, and safety have all improved...what came down? oh yeah, pay..

 

[cale42]

The wrinkle that no one wants to discuss is people being forced to start over at multiple regionals. I understand supply and demand and I understand paying my dues. However if we want to keep talented and experienced individuals in this industry we need to figure out a way to fix this.

I've worked for two regionals.. two full years of first year turboprop FO pay. I've gotten my chance to upgrade, been a captain for several years made the sacrifices and gotten my time and proven myself. Now I find myself about to be furloughed yet again and due to the economy my only option is to go back to the right seat of a regional on first year pay yet again if I want to keep flying.

OR I leave aviation and go to another field where I can apply myself and work hard and actually reap some benefits from that. As I read all the articles and watch the Frontline documentary I keep thinking coming back to the same fact. The training and preparation at regionals isn't the whole problem.. it's keeping talent in the cockpit that is probably the single biggest problem.

If there was a minimum wage for "experienced" FO's I would probably try another regional. If I had a guarantee of 40K a year I would suck up reserve again and commuting again. But all that pain for 18 to 19K a year?? I find myself leaning towards leaving aviation. I know I'm not alone in this, many experienced and talented pilots are tired of starting over at the regional level.

I've read this whole thread and flame me if you like, but I did know what I was getting into and I was and remain willing to pay my dues. However not in my wildest dreams did I think I would have to start over at the regionals 3 times in 4 years. Without some sort of minimum wage we will continue to drive many good pilots out of the industry and replace them with 250 hour pilots. If the US wants to be serious about safety this simply has to stop.

my $.02

cale

 

[WayBack]

I guess in some ways I agree but the fact of the matter is that the creations of the regional system screwed this industry and will continue forever now. We better preay that the regionals do not become the majority because there goes you leverage and we will all be working for $60 an hour.....

I believe the regionals fly the most domestic flying. If not, give it time.

if passengers would pay a fair price for tickets, maybe we could restore the industry to what it used to be..now everyone hates flying and just complain about all the things the airlines lack..its costs the same today to fly new york to LA as it did in the 1970's..maybe less! pilot quality, and safety have all improved...what came down? oh yeah, pay..

They could increase ticket prices, but it will never go back to the quality of service or the employees.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I guess in some ways I agree but the fact of the matter is that the creations of the regional system screwed this industry and will continue forever now. We better preay that the regionals do not become the majority because there goes you leverage and we will all be working for $60 an hour......being an airline pilot does not seem very good when you are making $40K a year driving a RAV 4....doing if for the flying left me a long time ago...now it is for the $$$ and the ease of the job.

The creation of the regional system is no different from any other industry in the US where lower cost and growth are fundamentals. Even the US military outsources. No doubt in the next month you and I will patronize outsourcing in some industry.....

As SWA pilot who do you want to be on the bottom half of the SWA seniority list when you are Capt (if you aren't now...). SWA is dependant on the regionals to provide qualified pilots. Would it be appropriate for SWA pilots to invest in the regionals?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The wrinkle that no one wants to discuss is people being forced to start over at multiple regionals. I understand supply and demand and I understand paying my dues. However if we want to keep talented and experienced individuals in this industry we need to figure out a way to fix this.

I've worked for two regionals.. two full years of first year turboprop FO pay. I've gotten my chance to upgrade, been a captain for several years made the sacrifices and gotten my time and proven myself. Now I find myself about to be furloughed yet again and due to the economy my only option is to go back to the right seat of a regional on first year pay yet again if I want to keep flying.

OR I leave aviation and go to another field where I can apply myself and work hard and actually reap some benefits from that. As I read all the articles and watch the Frontline documentary I keep thinking coming back to the same fact. The training and preparation at regionals isn't the whole problem.. it's keeping talent in the cockpit that is probably the single biggest problem.

If there was a minimum wage for "experienced" FO's I would probably try another regional. If I had a guarantee of 40K a year I would suck up reserve again and commuting again. But all that pain for 18 to 19K a year?? I find myself leaning towards leaving aviation. I know I'm not alone in this, many experienced and talented pilots are tired of starting over at the regional level.

I've read this whole thread and flame me if you like, but I did know what I was getting into and I was and remain willing to pay my dues. However not in my wildest dreams did I think I would have to start over at the regionals 3 times in 4 years. Without some sort of minimum wage we will continue to drive many good pilots out of the industry and replace them with 250 hour pilots. If the US wants to be serious about safety this simply has to stop.

my $.02

cale

your .02 is worth much more.....

I know a guy that was in the biz for 10 years. Flew for 5 different carriers. Furloughed three times. That is first year pay for half of his "career".

Keep in mind that first year pay is a CEO/COO's wet dream. The more often employees can be on first year pay, the better......

Consider a system where pilots were considered national assets as where airlines.... the Captains of Industry would never stand for it... because they couldn't keep recycling the labor cost back to first year pay....

The other problem is... prior to the colgan crash we've had one off the best safety years on record. And it was done after one of the worst decades in the biz. With pay slashed 40% and pensions gutted professional pilots flew quite safely. What does that tell the bean counters....

 

[inthegoo]

with pay slashed 40% and pensions gutted professional pilots flew quite safely. What does that tell the bean counters....

All right everyone:

FLY DANGEROUS!

Now it's the 410 club for me on every leg, especially in the 200 (ISA + 15 no prob), and when the shaker comes on, PULL HARDER!

 

[RedDogC130]

Would it be appropriate for SWA pilots to invest in the regionals?

Not if that investment means another pilot group is flying my (swa) passengers...and my pilot group has to be furloughed to make it happen..if SWA sees the value of a smaller aircraft into smaller markets then it should be SWA pilots doing the flying....the Legacies dropped the ball on that one.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not if that investment means another pilot group is flying my (swa) passengers...and my pilot group has to be furloughed to make it happen..if SWA sees the value of a smaller aircraft into smaller markets then it should be SWA pilots doing the flying....the Legacies dropped the ball on that one.

I'll rephrase.... should the SWA pilots and/or SWAPA be investing in the quality of professionalism at the regionals? After all most SWA applicants and future FOs are going to come from the regionals. One would think Gary Kelly would be interested too....

SWA has or does depend on other airlines and military to train their pilots, including the pilots themselves with the type. What SWA really looks for is whether or not an applicants mother did a good job.

If the legacy or Brand carriers start flying regional jets and taking lower time guys as new hires, (and doing more fundamental training, themselves) that might leave SWA in the lurch......

Crazy talk says in one or two decades SWA, (DAL, UAL and AMR) has to do ab initio training including the MPL. While this will increase SWA's costs it will also allow them to control training, SOPs, etc... it might also pragmatically no longer make SWA an attractive career move for the MIL guys, as all new hire SWA pilots will have to go to ab initio school. (designed for pilots with a private or CPL rating right out of college)

Crazy talk also says SWA has B787 in FRA. But that is just craaaaaazy.

 

[WayBack]

The other problem is... With pay slashed 40% and pensions gutted professional pilots flew quite safely. What does that tell the bean counters....

That no matter what BS they feed the pilots, they will continue to take pay cuts and keep flying those airplane. But if there was a union out there who wasn't afraid to strike......nah, that's just silly talk. Everyone knows the unions are in bed with management.

 

[RedDogC130]

You can't consider ALPA a union.... how can a union represent the pilots of 1 airline yet the other airline they represent wants to steal thier flying...ie legacy vs. regional.... It is a backwards system with each hand punching the face trying to win....each airline should have their own seperate in-house union to represent those pilots and not have to worry about the master union and the other companies they represent....how does that make sense....nobody to this day has been able to justify this to me...anyone care to try?

 

[WayBack]

You can't consider ALPA a union.... how can a union represent the pilots of 1 airline yet the other airline they represent wants to steal thier flying...ie legacy vs. regional.... It is a backwards system with each hand punching the face trying to win....each airline should have their own seperate in-house union to represent those pilots and not have to worry about the master union and the other companies they represent....how does that make sense....nobody to this day has been able to justify this to me...anyone care to try?

Wait, this means someone else gets it! Rez and PFT128 will be the first to tell you, you're stupid and don't understand. Then they will give some BS answer about that's how the RLA/ALPA operates, you know, a real union.....that's been dead for 50yrs.
But lately, it seems like ALPA's sole purpose for existence is for safety only, not preservation of airlines or pilot pay. Even though in ALPA's Bible, Fate is the Hunter, there is a quote stating ALPA's number one prerogative is Pilot Pay......but these same clowns will try and convince you that you're reading too far into it, or you misunderstood what he really meant.

 

[relief tube]

Lame and unAmerican concept.

Let the market forces rule, tethered by the mild socialism of collective bargaining.

thanks for talking, Rush

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You can't consider ALPA a union.... how can a union represent the pilots of 1 airline yet the other airline they represent wants to steal thier flying...ie legacy vs. regional.... It is a backwards system with each hand punching the face trying to win....each airline should have their own seperate in-house union to represent those pilots and not have to worry about the master union and the other companies they represent....how does that make sense....nobody to this day has been able to justify this to me...anyone care to try?

Would the 50 United States work without the Fed?

Each pilot group is their own autonomous unit. They govern themselves and use their own policy manual. However, when it comes to national issues, there is a representation structure there as well.

Two things for a LUV pilot to consider. SWAPA's CapHill presence is weak. This is where all of the laws and policy are agreed upon that determine your career. If you don't have a seat at the table how can you even begin to participate in the rules that control your career? CAPA is a great idea but they lack long term established relationships and "street cred". Putting out a 'press release' is easy.

The regionals and the legacy pilots are better off together than not.... First.. money talks, BS walks... how much would the dues rate have to be at the regionals for effectiveness. To be sure, regional pilots will complain if the dues rate is >1.95%, all while they will complain that their regional in house union is ineffective. No money... no staff, nothing gets done. I am guess dues would have to be close to 10% at a regional in order for them to be effective.

 

[WayBack]

Two things for a LUV pilot to consider. SWAPA's CapHill presence is weak. This is where all of the laws and policy are agreed upon that determine your career. If you don't have a seat at the table how can you even begin to participate in the rules that control your career? CAPA is a great idea but they lack long term established relationships and "street cred". Putting out a 'press release' is easy.

Ok, and ALPA still has a seat and it's weak. What actually gets done on "CapHill"? Ah, just what I thought, nothing! Pilots are still working the same BS FAR's that they have been for the last 75yrs. But hey, you have a seat at the head table. Good for you.
What's ALPA's "street cred"? You'd be amazed how many pilots see ALPA for the joke that it is.

I am guess dues would have to be close to 10% at a regional in order for them to be effective.

In-house our ALPA, both are ineffective.

 

[RedDogC130]

I would have to say, (acting like a ALPA person) "what has ALPA done for me lately?"..please name 1 thing ALPO has done in the past 5 years that has benifited any pilot group it has represented?....

please state the name of the "airline" and the "benefit" it has gotten by being represented by ALPO...bet you can't name anything..

 

[WayBack]

I would have to say, (acting like a ALPA person) "what has ALPA done for me lately?"..please name 1 thing ALPO has done in the past 5 years that has benifited any pilot group it has represented?....

please state the name of the "airline" and the "benefit" it has gotten by being represented by ALPO...bet you can't name anything..

I was doing some reading on that Boeing 787. Turns out ALPA really does have a hand/voice in creating that airplane.
Now it's clear as to why the airplane is so behind schedule and may never be put into production.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I would have to say, (acting like a ALPA person) "what has ALPA done for me lately?"..please name 1 thing ALPO has done in the past 5 years that has benifited any pilot group it has represented?....

please state the name of the "airline" and the "benefit" it has gotten by being represented by ALPO...bet you can't name anything..

edit your post and I will....

 

[WayBack]

edit your post and I will....

Why should he have to edit it? We have to decode have the crap you write...or did he hurt your wittle feewings?

 

[pipejockey]

Winner!!!!!!

Is supply and demand a concept familiar to anyone?

If one person does not want to fly for those wages, a few thousand bright-eyed kids who are subsidised by their parents, or are chomping at the bit to stop flight instruction will gladly step up to "pay their dues". Nothing will change this.

Oh geez, another supply and demand zealot. Well back in 2008 when regionals stopped hiring due to the cutbacks as a result of oil prices, most airlines were down to 300 total and 50 ME from where they usually start at which is 1500/500. And during these times when the regionals had to drop mins to the level of a freshly minted commercial pilot, both ASA and Mesa signed contracts. The lack of supply during a time of great demand didn't help those POS contracts did they?
Pay should be based on the job you do. It should be commiserate with the competence, level of performance and professionalism demanded. Not something as arbitrary as supply and demand. Pilots aren't widgets. We are people who do a very important job in which a whole lot is expected of them, not to mention the difficult lifestyle.