It's Official, DALALPA full of crap

[nwaredtail]

Retirement PROMISES. THose guys say they will punch at 60. You actually believe that don't you? :-\

Only 20% of the planned 60 retirements have stayed so far, mostly for the DAL/NWA equity that was "rumored", but 5% of those have now left. Yup, we have lost more guys in 3 months than DAL plans to lose in the next 6 years.

 

[FDJ2]

Only 20% of the planned 60 retirements have stayed so far, mostly for the DAL/NWA equity that was "rumored", but 5% of those have now left. Yup, we have lost more guys in 3 months than DAL plans to lose in the next 6 years.

If true, good for you, one less retirement down the road.

It's all water under the bridge, despite your MEC's desparate attempts to reengage and merge, it's over.

Now just walk away. I wish you guys the best. I hope you do well and get those large contract gains you are most certainly going to achieve 4-6 years from now.

 

[nwaredtail]

If true, good for you, one less retirement down the road.

It's all water under the bridge, despite your MEC's desparate attempts to reengage and merge, it's over.

Now just walk away. I wish you guys the best. I hope you do well and get those large contract gains you are most certainly going to achieve 4-6 years from now.

You know of course that your management went back on almost all the contract improvements and the no furlough clause. right? Without those, the deal is useless.

 

[d.fitz]

It's funny how all the DAL guys act as if this was in the best interest of NWA, and that NWA was lucky to have them as a partner.

It serves both, or neither....

FDJ2 - you keep saying to look it at from your perspective, yet you don't entertain any others... perhaps this was part of the problem, huh?

 

[FDJ2]

You know of course that your management went back on almost all the contract improvements and the no furlough clause. right? Without those, the deal is useless.

Yet your MEC Chairman keeps trying to renengage and breathe life into the merger. Why is that?

Did he hear something he didn't like in an E&FA brief at the last MEC meeting?

Oil has spiked to over $110/bbl, the stock value has plummetted, the value of the transaction is no longer there, so there is much less more money left on the table for pilots to capture.

Didn't I say over a month ago that there was no time for all this huff and puff bluster from your merger committee. Big mistake sending a merger committee to and SLI negotiation with a history of 26 arbitrations and 0 negotiated results when arbitration was off the table. If pilots were to capture value from this transaction. Big mistake sending them to the negotiations with instructions to "get the best deal you can get" and not "get he fairest deal for all the pilots."

Regardless, it's all water under the bridge. Time to move on.

 

[nwaredtail]

It's funny how all the DAL guys act as if this was in the best interest of NWA, and that NWA was lucky to have them as a partner.

It serves both, or neither....

FDJ2 - you keep saying to look it at from your perspective, yet you don't entertain any others... perhaps this was part of the problem, huh?

NWA is the best dance partner of all the legacy carriers. We have our problems, like them all, but DAL pretty much has no other option for a merger. Most of the complainers on FI are widebody F/O's who will see stagnation if we merge, as we all will.

With the contract improvements being "pulled" by RA, this deal quickly went south. Moak can tell himself that he scuttled the deal, but the NWAMEC is doing the they are legally bound to do, protect the careers of NWA pilots.

 

[FDJ2]

With the contract improvements being "pulled" by RA, this deal quickly went south. Moak can tell himself that he scuttled the deal, but the NWAMEC is doing the they are legally bound to do, protect the careers of NWA pilots.

Why is the NWA MEC Chairman trying to breathe new life into this merger days after Lee Moak said there was no basis for agreement and therefore no transaction agreement?

 

[FDJ2]

It's funny how all the DAL guys act as if this was in the best interest of NWA, and that NWA was lucky to have them as a partner.

If done properly over a month ago it could have been a good deal for all.

It serves both, or neither....

That's the nature of the transaction agreement. All sides need to come to agreement that it serves all or there is no deal.

FDJ2 - you keep saying to look it at from your perspective, yet you don't entertain any others... perhaps this was part of the problem, huh?

I've said early on that the perspective of both pilot groups needed to considered and the issues resolved early by a mutually agreed to SLI.

I said over a month ago that it was a big mistake for NWALPA to send a merger committee, with a history of 26 arbitrations and 0 negotiated agreements, to an SLI negotiation that required an expeditious agreement.

I said early on that there was no time for all the huff and puff bluster of a traditional merger SLI if we were to capture the value of this transaction for the benefit of both pilot groups.

The value of the transaction has now been squandered. Despite the continuing efforts of NWALPA to keep this merger and deal alive, and the statements of others that an agreement is still possible at this late date, it is dead. Time to move on.

If we revisit a similar merger situation in the future the same deal will not be presented. Expect to hear the statement "that was then, this is now".

 

[On Your Six]

NWA is the best dance partner of all the legacy carriers. We have our problems, like them all, but DAL pretty much has no other option for a merger. Most of the complainers on FI are widebody F/O's who will see stagnation if we merge, as we all will.

With the contract improvements being "pulled" by RA, this deal quickly went south. Moak can tell himself that he scuttled the deal, but the NWAMEC is doing the they are legally bound to do, protect the careers of NWA pilots.[/quote]

I thought scuttling the deal from the NWA side was protecting the "career expectations" of the NWA pilots. Funny how previous career expectations are now a distorted view of reality in the age of $110+ oil.

 

[nwaredtail]

Why is the NWA MEC Chairman trying to breathe new life into this merger days after Lee Moak said there was no basis for agreement and therefore no transaction agreement?

Actaully, I heard Moak called for more meetings and when NWAMEC said no thank you, he let out the false info to the press, thus using managments old "negotiate through the press" technique.

Also, how was your last merger with Western handled?

You guys are so funny how this would have been a windfall for NWA guys, yet all of the good stuff was taken away at the last minute. No way it could have happened fast enough to get the $$$$. Without the money, it's an A$$ ram for NWA.

 

[Noserider76]

Why would management withdraw pilot incentives for the deal without any warning or deadline (at least that I know of)? It seems as though they had second thoughts on the merger. Could oil prices have affected the numbers? Did the hedge funds backing the deal eat the big one in the stock market downturn? Did the price of DAL/NWA stock have anything to do with it? I wonder if we'll ever know.

Both sides were put in a very tough position. This was uncharted territory. When was the last time pilots had any say in a merger or stood to gain from it. I don't blame either side for not being able to pull off a decision in a couple months when we have other groups out there still fighting several years after their merger. And what's the point of all the "your airline's going down the sh*tter without this merger" posts?

 

[DAL737FO]

Nope, I don't favor a position that let's DAL pilots move up in seniority vacancies that were created by retirements of NWA pilots. Especially, since there would be very few retirements at DAL. Throw in:

It's funny how NWA guys throw this statement around like it is the truth. Your retirements outpace ours at Delta until 2020 then from 2021 on ours outpace yours by double. So who is going to be winning in that situation? Why do you guys always stop at the next ten years and not for the airline life of the most junior guy on property?

-767 pilots that are paid as narrowbody pilots wanting be to counted as widebody pilots. There's some "ex-wife" logic.

Let's see our 757's pay the same as our 767's which is $160/hr. Your A330's pay $162/hr and your 757's pay $144/hr which is closer to our payrates? Come on it's not a hard question. Additionally you guys fly the 747-400 at $179/hr where our 777's are $191/hr and our 767-400's are $181/hr. So who should be worried?

-No credit for fuel efficient 787 options, but DAL gets credit for their fewer A/C options. DUHHHHH

Good for you. Give us a call once the airplane actually flies.

-Furloughs would be mostly NWA pilots

If I heard our reps right the furloughs WOULD happen mostly from the NWA side IF it was due to parking the DC9 fleet. Which by the way you guys are bringing to the dance.

-managament going back on the economic package (well, no sh*t) and the no furlough protection

Sorry, We will dance alone.

As will we. Good luck to you guys. I think we are all in for another ride.

 

[DTW320]

Why would management withdraw pilot incentives for the deal without any warning or deadline (at least that I know of)? It seems as though they had second thoughts on the merger. Could oil prices have affected the numbers? Did the hedge funds backing the deal eat the big one in the stock market downturn? Did the price of DAL/NWA stock have anything to do with it? I wonder if we'll ever know.

Both sides were put in a very tough position. This was uncharted territory. When was the last time pilots had any say in a merger or stood to gain from it. I don't blame either side for not being able to pull off a decision in a couple months when we have other groups out there still fighting several years after their merger. And what's the point of all the "your airline's going down the sh*tter without this merger" posts?

Credit where credit is due. Very good post Noserider

 

[~~~^~~~]

That is the way business works. When a client comes to me and offers me work, if I do not instantly say "yes" the offer is withdrawn.

This was not a section 6 negotiation, it was business. In the interim material factors did change and the offer was withdrawn.

Might come back, probably will not. That's the business world.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Is it me or is seniority system/concept one big evil?

It's the disease and we keep complaining about the symptoms......

 

[formerdal]

Actaully, I heard Moak called for more meetings and when NWAMEC said no thank you, he let out the false info to the press, thus using managments old "negotiate through the press" technique.

Also, how was your last merger with Western handled?

You guys are so funny how this would have been a windfall for NWA guys, yet all of the good stuff was taken away at the last minute. No way it could have happened fast enough to get the $$$$. Without the money, it's an A$$ ram for NWA.

Bottom line is that all of us would like to believe that our respective MEC's are looking out for our best interests. However, all one has to do is look at history to see that the NWA side has always looked out for the senior guys and screwed the junior guys. Just look at your retirement situation, you guys took it in the shorts on payrates and retirement so your senior guys could have their cake and eat it too.

Now look at the Delta MEC. We all gave up the retirement, yes we lost alot of senior guys prior to CH11, however, everyone lost it from the top to the bottom. Now look at our DC and 401k plan, equal for everyone across the board. Our claim and note yielded me, a 2000 hire, $165,000. I had 3 years on furlough and about 4 years active service with the company. The Delta MEC has a history of treating everyone FAIRLY -the NWA MEC DOES NOT!

Ask your MEC how the equity was to be distibuted, our guys wanted it distributed equally among all pilots. Your guys wanted it split by seniority, big surprise there.

I understand you want to believe your MEC as we do at Delta, the difference is our group has a history of fairness to the entire list...YOURS DOES NOT! All one has to do is look at their statement with reagard to having more premium flying than Delta to realize that the NWA MEC is just trying to blow smoke up your collective pie holes...no disrespect intended and it would be nice if this went away. However, I think we are all missing out on an opportunity for the future....

 

[LandGreen]

Nope, I don't favor a position that let's DAL pilots move up in seniority vacancies that were created by retirements of NWA pilots. Especially, since there would be very few retirements at DAL. Throw in:

-767 pilots that are paid as narrowbody pilots wanting be to counted as widebody pilots. There's some "ex-wife" logic.

-No credit for fuel efficient 787 options, but DAL gets credit for their fewer A/C options. DUHHHHH

-Furloughs would be mostly NWA pilots

-managament going back on the economic package (well, no sh*t) and the no furlough protection

Sorry, We will dance alone.

Dont be sorry!!! DAL pilots are THRILLED you will be dancing alone!

 

[jke406]

Dont be sorry!!! DAL pilots are THRILLED you will be dancing alone!

NWA pilots may be dancing alone...but Steenland will be waiting for them when they get home from the prom...and we know what he'll want.

hint: it will involve the removal of their dress.

 

[Noserider76]

Bottom line is that all of us would like to believe that our respective MEC's are looking out for our best interests. However, all one has to do is look at history to see that the NWA side has always looked out for the senior guys and screwed the junior guys. Just look at your retirement situation, you guys took it in the shorts on payrates and retirement so your senior guys could have their cake and eat it too.

FWIW from our reps, NW never came off their position of having the top 500 spots even though that would have been above DOH for 220 of them. At least they didn't say top 400. That would have been too obvious.

Lots of tough issues involved not the least of which is protection for each side when/if aircraft are grounded. Would it be right to furlough guys from one side if airplanes brought from the other were eliminated?

 

[nwaredtail]

FWIW from our reps, NW never came off their position of having the top 500 spots even though that would have been above DOH for 220 of them. At least they didn't say top 400. That would have been too obvious.

Lots of tough issues involved not the least of which is protection for each side when/if aircraft are grounded. Would it be right to furlough guys from one side if airplanes brought from the other were eliminated?

Once it's combined, it's all the same airline. Being junior sucks at any airline.

FWIW, our top 500 guys are not going to leave the 747-400 to fly the 777 out of ATL, JFK. They would be a wash, as most have large pensions and will make more in retirement than they do flying.

 

[Noserider76]

Once it's combined, it's all the same airline. Being junior sucks at any airline.

True, but it would be something any MEC would have to take into account especially considering the fleets and the economic conditions. They were able to work out a way for NW to benefit from their retirements. They need to come up with a way to protect DL guys from the possibility of eliminating a fleet as well.

FWIW, our top 500 guys are not going to leave the 747-400 to fly the 777 out of ATL, JFK. They would be a wash, as most have large pensions and will make more in retirement than they do flying.

With the no-bump flush provision why would they insist on the top 500? Also the new contract would be a game-changer as far as retirements. You were going to leave but now your making big bucks, flying big equipment at the top of the list of the largest airline in the world. I think many if not most change their minds.

 

[IXLR8]

NWA pilots may be dancing alone...but Steenland will be waiting for them when they get home from the prom...and we know what he'll want.

hint: it will involve the removal of their dress.

And the same could be said for RA.......

 

[jke406]

And the same could be said for RA.......

I'd say Steenland's track record of acting like a colossal prick toward his pilots is considerably more substantial than RA's.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Full of LUV]

Sorely disappointed.....

Once it's combined, it's all the same airline. Being junior sucks at any airline.

FWIW, our top 500 guys are not going to leave the 747-400 to fly the 777 out of ATL, JFK. They would be a wash, as most have large pensions and will make more in retirement than they do flying.

I think NW ALPA and several others still with pensions will be sorely disappointed and suprised about how many will stick around despite the financial lunacy! Some of these old Vietnam Vets have their whole identity wrapped up as an airline pilots and it's funny when 30/40/50 year olds say what they'd do at 60 after the kids are gone and married and youve been to the vacation house and around the world, some will stay just for the personal enrichment of seeing the young misstresses over in the Orient. Most of those guys are set financially so retiring just for retirement or financial sake is not as sure a scenario as everyone is rooting for. If NWA ALPA is so sure, why not put it in the new contract that at age 60 you either retire or go to the bottom of the list, see how far that sits with the 55 year olds that have 787 captain in their eyes......
LUV

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

So, it seems that DALALPA never swayed from their ratioed list idea that would absolutely screw the NWA pilots and that DAL decided to "rethink" the economic package and no-furlough clause that they proposed. I guess Richard isn't the saint that some would like to paint.

Basically, their greed and lack on integrity caused the NWA pilots to walk away.

Gee....

1) good luck with Steenland....
2) Have fun with your "Lists"
3) Enjoy lower wages
4) Have fun at those Interstate layover hotels.
5) Believe the DC-9's being parked won't hurt.
5) Point at the mirror and say "it wasn't us!"
6) Repeat......

That'll make ya feel better when you want to get your member all hard and pound away on your keyboard sad that this "deal" didn't go down....

 

[FDJ2]

Actaully, I heard Moak called for more meetings and when NWAMEC said no thank you, he let out the false info to the press, thus using managments old "negotiate through the press" technique.

I didn't hear, I was there about a week ago when Lee Moak's phone went off with a text message from The NWA MEC Chairman wanting to reengage.

Just two days ago the NWALPA CHairman tried to breathe new life into the proces by suggesting accelerated arbitration. Talk about desparate.

If, instead, managements are smart and value pilot cooperation, they will encourage us to go back to the table with realistic business plans. Finally, if management feels the time is now for consolidation, they would be wise to encourage both pilot groups to accept expedited arbitration. While not perfect, with the right economic incentive, this approach could get the job done in time for the merged entity to reap the benefits of the efficiencies much earlier than with two frustrated pilot groups engaged in a traditional merger.

Your MEC is beginning to look like the psycho girlfriend in Fatal Attraction. Let it go guys, move on.

The Western merger, look it up and tell me why it is pertinent. Different time, different MEC, different merger, different airlines, different circumstances.


You guys are so funny how this would have been a windfall for NWA guys, yet all of the good stuff was taken away at the last minute. No way it could have happened fast enough to get the $$$$. Without the money, it's an A$$ ram for NWA.

That's fine, just please, move on. DALPA's not suggesting we go back to the table, DALPA's not suggesting arbitration, the deal is dead. Now please, let it go.

 

[DTW320]

Gee....

1) good luck with Steenland....
2) Have fun with your "Lists"
3) Enjoy lower wages
4) Have fun at those Interstate layover hotels.
5) Believe the DC-9's being parked won't hurt.
5) Point at the mirror and say "it wasn't us!"
6) Repeat......

That'll make ya feel better when you want to get your member all hard and pound away on your keyboard sad that this "deal" didn't go down....

Gee Bill....things must be so much better at DAL. Here's your earlier take on YOUR contract:

PEOPLE.....

Listen to yourselves....I'm sick thinking that we have Delta people GLOATING over our dumped pension and crappy pay rates and CFO controlled incentive laden POS contract. You guys rationalize this by bragging about being the best setup out of bankruptcy...

Kinda reminds me of the old special olympics joke....You may be first in the 100 yard dash, but you are still a retard!!

That's our money these clowns are walking away with....that's OUR money that was deposited into your 401K....get on that train of thought and maybe we'll find a pair and stand up to these thieves.....

Yessiree. Sign - Me - UP!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Gee Bill....things must be so much better at DAL. Here's your earlier take on YOUR contract:
Yessiree. Sign - Me - UP!

Thanks for the backup....or in your case, the reacharound.....

Unlike you, I didn't blame anybody for our problems....big difference.....you guys are running around blaming us, when the mirror holds the culprit at both airlines.....