It's Official, DALALPA full of crap

[nwaredtail]

So, it seems that DALALPA never swayed from their ratioed list idea that would absolutely screw the NWA pilots and that DAL decided to "rethink" the economic package and no-furlough clause that they proposed. I guess Richard isn't the saint that some would like to paint.

Basically, their greed and lack on integrity caused the NWA pilots to walk away.

 

[FDJ2]

So, it seems that DALALPA never swayed from their ratioed list idea that would absolutely screw the NWA pilots and that DAL decided to "rethink" the economic package and no-furlough clause that they proposed. I guess Richard isn't the saint that some would like to paint.

Basically, their greed and lack on integrity caused the NWA pilots to walk away.

Let me see, you don't support a ratioed list that honors each pilots premerger position. And you say that DALPA is full of crap? Your arrogance is amazing.

 

[737 Pylt]

So, it seems that DALALPA never swayed from their ratioed list idea that would absolutely screw the NWA pilots and that DAL decided to "rethink" the economic package and no-furlough clause that they proposed. I guess Richard isn't the saint that some would like to paint.

Basically, their greed and lack on integrity caused the NWA pilots to walk away.

LMAO!
Hey numbnutz....The NWA position of DOH was as rediculous as your claim above. I can't wait til your next dance partner tells you to go pound sand. After giving the DAL pilots the middle finger, you won't have anyone willing to give in to your rediculous DOH demands and stapling anyone to the bottom of your list.
You can keep your old dc9's, 747's, and substandard wages......After your senior guys decide to continue to fly past age 60 your career stagnation wll be as bad as your greed. One thing's for sure. You all deserve each other!

737

 

[nwaredtail]

Let me see, you don't support a ratioed list that honors each pilots premerger position. And you say that DALPA is full of crap? Your arrogance is amazing.

Nope, I don't favor a position that let's DAL pilots move up in seniority vacancies that were created by retirements of NWA pilots. Especially, since there would be very few retirements at DAL. Throw in:

-767 pilots that are paid as narrowbody pilots wanting be to counted as widebody pilots. There's some "ex-wife" logic.

-No credit for fuel efficient 787 options, but DAL gets credit for their fewer A/C options. DUHHHHH

-Furloughs would be mostly NWA pilots

-managament going back on the economic package (well, no sh*t) and the no furlough protection

Sorry, We will dance alone.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm curious about the respective proposals. From personal experience I think a "relative" seniority integration is the most fair. Was DALPA's "ratio" proposal something close to relative?

 

[NuGuy]

So, it seems that DALALPA never swayed from their ratioed list idea that would absolutely screw the NWA pilots and that DAL decided to "rethink" the economic package and no-furlough clause that they proposed. I guess Richard isn't the saint that some would like to paint.

Basically, their greed and lack on integrity caused the NWA pilots to walk away.

Heyas NRT,

Exactly. From Steven's letter it seemed that the two groups were closing in a deal with the innovative "dynamic seniority list".

Then DAL management decided to welch on the economic gains and Moak said "uh, uh, so? They promised!". Glad our guys had experience with management that backpedals, and so wasn't too inclined to listen to bogus promises.


Phew...

Nu

 

[nwaredtail]

LMAO!
Hey numbnutz....The NWA position of DOH was as rediculous as your claim above. I can't wait til your next dance partner tells you to go pound sand. After giving the DAL pilots the middle finger, you won't have anyone willing to give in to your rediculous DOH demands and stapling anyone to the bottom of your list.
You can keep your old dc9's, 747's, and substandard wages......After your senior guys decide to continue to fly past age 60 your career stagnation wll be as bad as your greed. One thing's for sure. You all deserve each other!


Truth hurts huh? Our position was never DOH, but some moron at DAL started that rumor and all the "we believe everything we are told" types believed it. Our position was slotted, ie, NWA pilot retires, NWA pilot moves up.

Save your contract comparison crap. I wouldn't call your contract something to be proud of. We had 50 plus guys retire this year already, how about at DAL? Yup, thought so.

 

[NuGuy]

I'm curious about the respective proposals. From personal experience I think a "relative" seniority integration is the most fair. Was DALPA's "ratio" proposal something close to relative?

Actually, the integration method was pretty radical. All NWA and DAL pilots were to be "slotted". As each side had attrition, each side's pilots would move up to the next "slot" for that airline. It was remarkably similar to the "dynamic seniority list" someone presented here a while back...each side preserved the attrition that it brought to the table. This part of the SLI was SOLVED!

There was NO problem with a relative seniority merger at all. In fact, unlike what we'd been led to believe here, the NWA team was pushing this along with the dynamic list concept. But the problem was the slotting ratio, which VASTLY favored the DAL pilots. It wasn't even close to a 1.4 ratio, which is what a even split (percentile list) would have created. It was closer to a 1.8 ratio, which backloaded the list with NWA guys. It didn't come anywhere NEAR a "relative seniority" merge. There were guys that were going to have double digit percentile shifts and made an out of proportion number of NWA guys furlough fodder (which, apparently, DAL management suddenly decided to welch on).

Nu

 

[FDJ2]

Nope, I don't favor a position that let's DAL pilots move up in seniority vacancies that were created by retirements of NWA pilots. Especially, since there would be very few retirements at DAL. Throw in:

The last offer included a dynamic seniority list for your attrition and credit for aircraft orders.

-767 pilots that are paid as narrowbody pilots wanting be to counted as widebody pilots. There's some "ex-wife" logic.

The 767 is a wide bodied aircraft. If it paid narrow bodied rates it would pay your 757 rates and not equivalent to you A330s. The domestic 767 rate is the same as the international 767ER rate.

-No credit for fuel efficient 787 options, but DAL gets credit for their fewer A/C options. DUHHHHH

Guess what, no credit for our options either. DUHHHHH.

-Furloughs would be mostly NWA pilots

Now why is that? Wouldn't there have been a no bump, no flush provision?

-managament going back on the economic package (well, no sh*t) and the no furlough protection

Yeah, imagine that. Didn't I say on here a month ago that there was no time for the typical huff and puff posturing. Pity you brought a merger committee absolutely unprepared to New York. Better luck next time with those clowns.

Sorry, We will dance alone.

Fine, dance alone, at least for now.

 

[FDJ2]

But the problem was the slotting ratio, which VASTLY favored the DAL pilots. It wasn't even close to a 1.4 ratio, which is what a even split (percentile list) would have created. It was closer to a 1.8 ratio, which backloaded the list with NWA guys. It didn't come anywhere NEAR a "relative seniority" merge. There were guys that were going to have double digit percentile shifts and made an out of proportion number of NWA guys furlough fodder (which, apparently, DAL management suddenly decided to welch on).

Nu

The ratio was 1.603, not 1.8. A straight ratio would have been about 1.48.

When your pilots wanted to look into the future to capture your attrition, it was only fair for the DAL pilots to do likewise and capture the difference in aircraft orders.

I thought there was a no bump no flush clause, so I don't see how you would have been furlough fodder. After all, aren't those DC-9s going to be there until 2021? At least that's what you guys were spouting before.

 

[FDJ2]

Heyas NRT,

Exactly. From Steven's letter it seemed that the two groups were closing in a deal with the innovative "dynamic seniority list".

Then DAL management decided to welch on the economic gains and Moak said "uh, uh, so? They promised!".

Not really, DALPA walked away well over a week ago, even though at our MEC meeting last wednesday your MEC was texting Lee Moak asking yet again to reengage.

Glad our guys had experience with management that backpedals, and so wasn't too inclined to listen to bogus promises.
Phew...

Nu

It wasn't a bogus promise, it was an alternative approach and an opportunity. Unfortunately it was squandered by an unprepared merger committee more accustomed to bluster and posturing.

I said last month there was no time for all this Huff and Puff. The Delta pilots recognized this and came in with a very middle of the road relative seniority approach looking to get this done in a hurry. The NWA folks still thought arbitration was an option.

Have you ever heard the term "that was then, this is now?"


While all the huffing and puffing was going on oil climbed to over $110/bbl.

Guess what managment said.

 

[Noserider76]

So, it seems that DALALPA never swayed from their ratioed list idea that would absolutely screw the NWA pilots and that DAL decided to "rethink" the economic package and no-furlough clause that they proposed. I guess Richard isn't the saint that some would like to paint.

Basically, their greed and lack on integrity caused the NWA pilots to walk away.

Maybe management looked at 100+ DC-9s, some 4-engine airplanes and $110 dollar oil and started to rethink the deal. How about you post the letter though so we can judge for ourselves instead of relying on your unbiased opinion?

 

[NuGuy]

The ratio was 1.603, not 1.8. A straight ratio would have been about 1.48.

I think my numbers are closer, BUT, even if we take your's as correct, that's NOT a relative percentile list. I thought your position was a "relative list", which that most certainly is not.

When your pilots wanted to look into the future to capture your attrition, it was only fair for the DAL pilots to do likewise and capture the difference in aircraft orders.

The attrition issue was solved for BOTH sides by the slotted, dynamic list. EVERYONE got credit for what they brought to the table. BUT the DAL guys wanted credit for your aircraft on option, and but didn't want to give us credit for our options. How does THAT work?

I thought there was a no bump no flush clause, so I don't see how you would have been furlough fodder. After all, aren't those DC-9s going to be there until 2021? At least that's what you guys were spouting before.

Anything other than a straight percentile list backloads the list for one side or the other. You already admitted the DAL proposed ratio was lopsided, so that would have put more NWA guys closer to the bottom, and thus subject to displacement/furlough out of proportion. When DAL management welched on that part of the new contract, it was the final straw.

Had it been a straight percentage ratio, along with the attrition slotting and proportional weight given to aircraft options, this thing would be done.

Nu

 

[FDJ2]

The attrition issue was solved for BOTH sides by the slotted, dynamic list. EVERYONE got credit for what they brought to the table. BUT the DAL guys wanted credit for your aircraft on option, and but didn't want to give us credit for our options. How does THAT work?

No, the dynamic list only addresses your attrition concerns going forward. It doesn't address aircraft orders going forward, which is an issue for DAL pilots.

You see Nu, you can't just solve your concerns and ignore ours. If you want to capture your future attrition, we want to capture our new aircraft deliveries.

BTW, DAL has more scheduled deliveries, more orders and more options. Pick one for both airlines, but don't just cherry pick yours and ignore ours.

DAL has orders for 58 aircraft, options for 96 and rolling options on over 120. So what do you have?

It's not all about just your concerns.

 

[Poahi]

Hey guys,

Southwest Airlines called. They said thanks.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Let's see if I can summarize the next 4 pages of this thread:

"You suck!"

"Un-uh! YOU suck!"

"You suck so bad I got hickeys on my laptop screen!"

"Oh HUH! Mathematically speaking, you suck the root!"

"Well, relatively speaking, even my Mom says you suck!"

"Weasel!"

"Weenie!"


(repeat with gusto)

 

[Noserider76]

Let's see if I can summarize the next 4 pages of this thread:

"You suck!"

"Un-uh! YOU suck!"

"You suck so bad I got hickeys on my laptop screen!"

"Oh HUH! Mathematically speaking, you suck the root!"

"Well, relatively speaking, even my Mom says you suck!"

"Weasel!"

"Weenie!"


(repeat with gusto)

That was good, but when the thread title is IT'S OFFICIAL, DALALPA IS FULL OF CRAP, it kind of sets the tone. Hey, at least he used a comma. By the way, you still suck, just much less than most of the other NWA guys.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

love it

 

[ACL65PILOT]

There is more to come.

 

[jke406]

Save your contract comparison crap. I wouldn't call your contract something to be proud of. We had 50 plus guys retire this year already, how about at DAL? Yup, thought so.

so you wanted the pay raise, the DC increase, the equity, your pension, the work rules windfall, better-than-your-current ratio, and credit for orders that aren't yours?

good luck topping that in your next contract negotiation...in a few years.

maybe you'll get free wi-fi in your hotel rooms, though. and 5% off happy hour. that's something to shoot for.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Exhibit "A"*








*absent the intellectualism of 2nd graders.

 

[737 Pylt]

Let's see if I can summarize the next 4 pages of this thread:

"You suck!"

"Un-uh! YOU suck!"

"You suck so bad I got hickeys on my laptop screen!"

"Oh HUH! Mathematically speaking, you suck the root!"

"Well, relatively speaking, even my Mom says you suck!"

"Weasel!"

"Weenie!"


(repeat with gusto)

Yeah, well, HE started it!

737

 

[NuGuy]

Let's see if I can summarize the next 4 pages of this thread:

"You suck!"

"Un-uh! YOU suck!"

"You suck so bad I got hickeys on my laptop screen!"

"Oh HUH! Mathematically speaking, you suck the root!"

"Well, relatively speaking, even my Mom says you suck!"

"Weasel!"

"Weenie!"


(repeat with gusto)

Oh yea? Yo mama sooo fat, your neighbors said "That's no moon, that's a space station"

Nyuk, nyuk....

Nu

 

[Zipperhead]

LMAO!
Hey numbnutz....The NWA position of DOH was as rediculous as your claim above. I can't wait til your next dance partner tells you to go pound sand. After giving the DAL pilots the middle finger, you won't have anyone willing to give in to your rediculous DOH demands and stapling anyone to the bottom of your list.
You can keep your old dc9's, 747's, and substandard wages......After your senior guys decide to continue to fly past age 60 your career stagnation wll be as bad as your greed. One thing's for sure. You all deserve each other!


Truth hurts huh? Our position was never DOH, but some moron at DAL started that rumor and all the "we believe everything we are told" types believed it. Our position was slotted, ie, NWA pilot retires, NWA pilot moves up.

Save your contract comparison crap. I wouldn't call your contract something to be proud of. We had 50 plus guys retire this year already, how about at DAL? Yup, thought so.

Don't try to use logic with 737pylt, he thinks any merger with the airine he works for should send him to the top of the seniority list. Don't bother wasting your time "debating" with him. He'll spin and spin and spin everything you say and he'll believe everything his beloved DALPA tells him. Watch the ridiciolous reply to this post......

 

[737 Pylt]

Don't try to use logic with 737pylt, he thinks any merger with the airine he works for should send him to the top of the seniority list. Don't bother wasting your time "debating" with him. He'll spin and spin and spin everything you say and he'll believe everything his beloved DALPA tells him. Watch the ridiciolous reply to this post......

Zipperhead:
I fart in your general direction!

737

 

[Zipperhead]

Zipperhead:
I fart in your general direction!

737

That's lucid...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Actually, the integration method was pretty radical. All NWA and DAL pilots were to be "slotted". As each side had attrition, each side's pilots would move up to the next "slot" for that airline. It was remarkably similar to the "dynamic seniority list" someone presented here a while back...each side preserved the attrition that it brought to the table. This part of the SLI was SOLVED!

There was NO problem with a relative seniority merger at all. In fact, unlike what we'd been led to believe here, the NWA team was pushing this along with the dynamic list concept. But the problem was the slotting ratio, which VASTLY favored the DAL pilots. It wasn't even close to a 1.4 ratio, which is what a even split (percentile list) would have created. It was closer to a 1.8 ratio, which backloaded the list with NWA guys. It didn't come anywhere NEAR a "relative seniority" merge. There were guys that were going to have double digit percentile shifts and made an out of proportion number of NWA guys furlough fodder (which, apparently, DAL management suddenly decided to welch on).

Nu

Nu,

It is interesting to gain a little insight into what was the table positions, then compare these positions to what people write on these boards.

If my understanding is correct, the NWA pilots wanted dynamic seniority, but had the DAL pilots run the model and report back to them. NWA's revisions did not sound as good to me as the original proposal and put more NWA pilots on the bottom than the DAL proposal.

I'm sure the NWA pilots are good folks. If anything there was a big difference in the time both sides had to prepare which resulted in a big difference in how offers and resolutions were percieved and evaluated.

No hard feelings on this side. Good luck to you, our codeshare partners, it is going to be a bumpy ride for all of us.

I get the feeling something else is in the works for Delta with another airline.

 

[Freight Dog]

Is it me or is seniority system/concept one big evil?

 

[TWA Dude]

No, it isn't evil, but it is brutal. It's also necessary.

 

[dtfl]

Nope, I don't favor a position that let's DAL pilots move up in seniority vacancies that were created by retirements of NWA pilots. Especially, since there would be very few retirements at DAL. Throw in:

Retirement PROMISES. THose guys say they will punch at 60. You actually believe that don't you? :-\