It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

[Music]

This whole thread and every other thread like it has become pointless. Everyone keeps saying the same stuff. Well here's some new stuff (at least from me FWIW).

I have read every document (more than a few times now) and as much as I want to salute and move on I can't. I can't in good conscience vote for an agreement (if it ever gets that far) that unfair for others and bad for me and my family. As an 11 year 737 captain I would keep my seat and most likely go from partial weekends off in ATL to being on reserve. To make matters worse, I have no doubt that as our junior 737 captains take it in the shorts trying to hold on to their captain seat while bouncing around to every junior SW base they will eventually tire of that and voluntarily downgrade for QOL reasons. This will return an AT captain retention slot and subsequently a SW FO will receive an upgrade. Because I've given up nearly 4 years of seniority, I will slowly fall down the pole in ATL (as AT guys below me in ATL give up and downgrade as well) until I eventually give up. This chain of events comes at the price of now waiting for all of the SW FOs to upgrade before I can return to the left seat. As I've said before, I don't care which seat I sit in, but living with this agreement will be like living with cancer, a slow painful death (from a QOL standpoint for me). And before you say the money matters, it doesn't, at least not to me. And no, I never had an app in at SWA. For no other reason, because I was content in my position.

Moving forward, I will vote no (if given the chance). Make no mistake, I want to make this work, I really do, but I just can't vote for this, and it hurts to say that.

With that said I understand the potential consequences and if I am kept from joining SWA, so be it. I'll have to find work somewhere else. If that occurs, there will be one undeniable truth: The famous SWA culture would be more akin to group of fascists, then a family. If I am forced to find another job strictly because the 4-party Process Agreement was followed (whatever the outcome) then what else is there to say.

I fully expect you to flame away, because that's what most do here.

Respectfully, Sighhhhhhh....

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

2 Things:

1. Upgrade in the next decade (and none of us, even this AIP's cheerleaders, are trying to push the "virtual upgrade by pay" argument - it's not the same as upgrading. Most of us have spent the majority of our careers in the left seat. We like it there, and so do you. It's OK to say so. Really.

2. Override pay for flying for someone junior to you by Date of Hire. You get a 25% override to your existing rates if you get a line with someone junior to you by DoH as your CA. We don't when the shoe goes on the other foot, and it does by the end of the 9 year upgrade lock-out, and stays that way for another decade, much longer than your guys will have to fly with ours and in much higher numbers (there are over 1,500 guys who will be senior to me with lesser Dates of Hire).

I'm not angry about either of those, although I'm not thrilled by the first one (a 9 year lock-out on upgrades? Even for our own top 20 senior guys who were next to upgrade in the next few months in which their upgrade class was cancelled just prior to vacancy notice because of this deal?).

Just playing Devil's Advocate that there ARE benefits for the SWA pilots from this. Never said there shouldn't be.

I'll give you a 50 percent on this one. The only upgrades that we see either with or without this acquistion are based on our retirements.

 

[GoodTimes]

Music,

This thing sucks for both sides. It's all about perspective.

 

[Cometman]

This whole thread and every other thread like it has become pointless. Everyone keeps saying the same stuff. Well here's some new stuff (at least from me FWIW).

I have read every document (more than a few times now) and as much as I want to salute and move on I can't. I can't in good conscience vote for an agreement (if it ever gets that far) that unfair for others and bad for me and my family. As an 11 year 737 captain I would keep my seat and most likely go from partial weekends off in ATL to being on reserve. To make matters worse, I have no doubt that as our junior 737 captains take it in the shorts trying to hold on to their captain seat while bouncing around to every junior SW base they will eventually tire of that and voluntarily downgrade for QOL reasons. This will return an AT captain retention slot and subsequently a SW FO will receive an upgrade. Because I've given up nearly 4 years of seniority, I will slowly fall down the pole in ATL (as AT guys below me in ATL give up and downgrade as well) until I eventually give up. This chain of events comes at the price of now waiting for all of the SW FOs to upgrade before I can return to the left seat. As I've said before, I don't care which seat I sit in, but living with this agreement will be like living with cancer, a slow painful death (from a QOL standpoint for me). And before you say the money matters, it doesn't, at least not to me. And no, I never had an app in at SWA. For no other reason, because I was content in my position.

Moving forward, I will vote no (if given the chance). Make no mistake, I want to make this work, I really do, but I just can't vote for this, and it hurts to say that.

With that said I understand the potential consequences and if I am kept from joining SWA, so be it. I'll have to find work somewhere else. If that occurs, there will be one undeniable truth: The famous SWA culture would be more akin to group of fascists, then a family. If I am forced to find another job strictly because the 4-party Process Agreement was followed (whatever the outcome) then what else is there to say.

I fully expect you to flame away, because that's what most do here.

Respectfully, Sighhhhhhh....

Give me a break. You will never vote NO and you will never give up your seat. You will vote yes because it is human nature. You care about yourself and you do not care about anybody else. You might say you do but behind close doors you will vote yes because it benefits you. Nobody is buying your sad story.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL Your opinion is based on the assumption that AAI would have continued to grown minus the acquisition.

Not entirely. We have about 15-20 retirements a year. With this deal, we lose all of our own attrition and our senior FOs don't even get upgrades from our own retirements. Guys that would have been captains late last year are left waiting 13 years, with many of them retiring before they can ever hold an upgrade slot. Absolutely ridiculous.

Can you ensure that had the acquisition not happened that AAI would have grown and not sold off those delivery slots?

Nothing is ever guaranteed, but it's highly unlikely that all growth would have stopped. Maybe it would have slowed, but growth would have continued barring some unforeseen circumstance like another 9/11.

Can you promise me that without the acquisition that AAI management would have not farmed out your flying to Skywest or someone else and then shrank your fleet while maintaining the AAI system ASMs?

Our scope language didn't really allow for much outsourcing.

Whats your upgrade date at AAI in a no growth environment? Mine at SWA is 17 years out.

Mine was the same as yours, actually: 17 years. Upgrade would have been in early 2028 with zero growth.

The other thing you are missing is that very few of your captains will be stuck on reserve in the Southwest system. Most will be living in an AAI bubble either in ATL or on the 717.

By reducing the size of ATL by half, that destroys much of the protection that you reference. Tons of 737 pilots will be bumped out of ATL into the SWA system with no seniority, and will be stuck on reserve for many years. Even the 717 pilots in ATL will watch their relative seniority within their bid category get hammered as the base is downsized.

 

[Music]

Give me a break. You will never vote NO and you will never give up your seat. You will vote yes because it is human nature. You care about yourself and you do not care about anybody else. You might say you do but behind close doors you will vote yes because it benefits you. Nobody is buying your sad story.

I'm not trying to "sell" my story to anyone. And while you may think that this is some "ploy" by me to change people's minds, you're mistaken. I only speak for myself, period. Regardless of what you may think, I will vote no (again, if it goes to a membership vote), and I will do it begrudgingly knowing all the possible ramifications.

 

[Music]

Music,

This thing sucks for both sides. It's all about perspective.

Agreed. And I would expect pilots at SWA to vote their conscience based on a through examination of the agreement and how it effects them as well.

 

[Whine Lover]

Cometman,

I "buy" his story.

It's NOT all about money, and he explained what his priorities were.

Hard to believe, I know, but some of us think differently than the rest.

( Said the Man who just passed up a 747 Captain's seat after only 1 year at his new employer...")

WHAT? WHO would do that? You may ask.

I suppose you don't believe that either...But it's true.

WHY?

Basically for the same main reason our friend Music previously mentioned:

- QOL

+ I don't need the extra money

+ I don't need the extra responsibility

+ I don't need the "prestige"

+ I already have the cool hat

+ Chicks dig me anyway....( after I explain to them... exactly why.)

We don't all think alike, money is not the only motivator, and it's a smart individual who does not base his decisions on what seems to be the obvious....Because many times, it isn't.

YKMKR

P.S. - I forgot to add another reason: After 12 years as a Boeing Captain previously, my SIC time is sorely lacking, so I am trying to build that up. Then I'll have that going for me too.... Which will be nice.

 

[Ty Webb]

I think we would quite a few junior CA's give up the seat, if they had any seniority as an FO to fall back on. Under this agreement, I doubt many will give it up, just to be a mid-level FO.

That's part of the problem with this agreement, it isn't an "organic" solution. DOH would have been more logical, and probably would have resulted in 250+ CA seats going to SWA FO's. Instead, there will be a sub-caste of migrant-worker Captains. These 5 month Captains will be FO's during slow months, and CA's during the summer.

 

[Cometman]

Cometman,

I "buy" his story.

It's NOT all about money, and he explained what his priorities were.

Hard to believe, I know, but some of us think differently than the rest.

( Said the Man who just passed up a 747 Captain's seat after only 1 year at his new employer...")

WHAT? WHO would do that? You may ask.

I suppose you don't believe that either...But it's true.

WHY?

Basically for the same main reason our friend Music previously mentioned:

- QOL

+ I don't need the extra money

+ I don't need the extra responsibility

+ I don't need the "prestige"

+ I already have the cool hat

+ Chicks dig me anyway....( after I explain to them... exactly why.)

We don't all think alike, money is not the only motivator, and it's a smart individual who does not base his decisions on what seems to be the obvious....Because many times, it isn't.

YKMKR

P.S. - I forgot to add another reason: After 12 years as a Boeing Captain previously, my SIC time is sorely lacking, so I am trying to build that up. Then I'll have that going for me too.... Which will be nice.

When it is all over there will be ZERO Airtran Captains that give up their seat. What they say here to show support for their First Officers is just bull. They care about themselves. The junior First Officers will also vote yes to get away from Airtran. You now have 51%. In the real world nobody cares about anybody except their immediate family and themselves. When a pilot dies the first think you ask is what was his seniority number. If it was junior to you then you feel bad. If he was senior you move up one. That is life and you need to get use to it. I know it sounds cruel but that is the way it is. This goes for the SWA side also.