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It's almost over at USAIR.

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I think the saddest part is that the employees have been asked over and over to cover for the ineptness of their management. I maintain that every employee at US AIR could have worked for free the past year and management would have still screwed it up.
 
Somehow I don't think this is posturing any longer. If the judge throws out the contract, FA's walk, U shut's down.

If the contract stays, then I guess this would apply:

"...US Airways, the seventh-largest U.S. carrier, has said it must cut its union contracts to survive past January..."

So either way, it's over in two weeks. A sad day indeed, and a new-found respect for AFA!
 
I doubt they will do it! I think it is a negotiation ploy, I think the company will call it and that will be that.

I thought I read someplace that the AFA was nearing a T/A, am I mistaken?
 
"Sit back and observe as bold nerve will turn to jelly".

We are talking about the AFA and not your little "friend", right:)
 
Well Dizel8, I would have to agree with you. I don't think management will let the FA's bury it, since Mgt. is doing such a fine job.

Management will call it. That'll be that.
 
Dizel8 said:
"Sit back and observe as bold nerve will turn to jelly".

We are talking about the AFA and not your little "friend", right:)
Both.:D
 
Boeingman said:
I don't know which is worse: The fact the F/A's are the only ones with some balls, or the complete lack of spine USAIR ALPA had facing the invitable and capitulating every time.

Either way a sad situation as another once proud carrier goes down the drain.
Boy, I couldn't agree more. As this article (amoung others) notes, the anouncement of the strike vote is simply the verification of a vote sent to the USAirways AFA members several weeks ago. Negotiations are ongoing, and reports are that both sides are about $10 million apart in their respective positions, albeit those positions are the most ominous (wage, rules and pension). If (a big if) an agreement is forthcoming, expect to see it just prior to the 25th. I personally believe, left to the devices of the USAirways AFA alone, an agreement will be had before the end of the year.

However, read between the lines of the news coverage on the AFA drama. The highly visible spokesperson on this whole issue is Patricia Friend, the International president of AFA. Nary a word has been heard from the airline's AFA MEC chairman. Meaning this issue is perceived within the national union as important beyond the domain of USAirways alone. And no one need kid themselves which carrier's local chapter runs the purse strings and political power of the national union, and it ain't USAirways. Some have speculated that the national AFA will allow USAirways AFA to "fall on their sword" to bolster the other AFA positions in the future. I personally don't subscribe to this concept, but I do find the loud voice of AFA's national representatives interesting.

Compare this, however, to the screaming silence from Duane Worthe and ALPA national during the total destruction of the USAirways pilot's contract. The spineless USAirways MEC rolled over on the defined benefit pension plan, and allowed management to unilaterally gut the pilot's pay and benefits. But they didn't stop there, rolling over each time the company said "boo". All this while ALPA national sat silent. Only after the mushroom cloud began to settle did ALPA national make a statement, and then only to announce the exploration of the "age 60" rule based upon "undeniable realities" facing our aging pilot groups. Unbelievable!

I think the "card-holding" entity for the immediate future of USAirways remains the IAM. They struck the airline in Oct. 1989, and negotiations between the two parties today has yielded zip. If you believe Chris Chiames, senior vice president of corporate affairs, the company's transformation plan "assumes" (I know what you're thinking . . ) a $250 million equity investment by January in order to exit Chapter 11, and current financial investors and venture capitalists (burned multiple times with their past investments in U) are balking big time absent across the board labor concessions, including AFA and IAM. IAM negotiations are historically the most drawn-out, and time seems to be running out on their current finances to sustain protracted concessionary negotiations. Bumping up against the January deadlines on lease payments and pension obligations (witness the current PBGC's "get tough" stance on UAL's required pension payments), USAirways will simply run out of available cash to fund their operation absent an immediate cash infusion, and that ain't coming unless the IAM cuts a fast deal. Again, the numbers are just not adding up.

Though I don't really know the motives of AFA national's position at USAirways, nor can I predict the outcome of the IAM negotiations, at least there's a national union somewhere voicing the ire of an employee group at USAirways.

Red
 
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You sound like a doomsday prophet who wants to push his veiws.US Airways is`undergoing a brutal transformation to a low cost carrier and its workers are going to conform to a large degree or find themselves on the cold hard streets. While the other airlines greedily move in to take over their flying. It seems to me you fly for one of this other airlines.
 
It is easy to say U mgt is terrible. How about somebody posting what they should have done these last few years?
 
Boeingman said:
I don't know which is worse: The fact the F/A's are the only ones with some balls, or the complete lack of spine USAIR ALPA had facing the invitable and capitulating every time.
This is a sad situation. Usually you strike for something, not just to strike. What will be the outcome if ALPA calls a strike? What could possibly be gained at this late date? Are the passengers just going to wait for U management to make things right according to ALPA? The answer of course is NO.

A strike will be just for spite. The employee group with the least to lose will be the one to walk out. The F/As dont have "balls" as you say, they just have the least to lose and afterall who can blame them.
 
Yeah, it's almost been over ever since I got here. I remember Rakesh saying "I will not have CHAOS on my airline! I will shut it down!" Did he? No, a settlement appeared in the 13th hour. The AFA didn't blink, and the company did business as usual.

Threads such as this only spread fear. Relax, and have a Merry Christmas, for there's nothing anyone can do to change the eventual outcome. The company will negotiate a deal when the company wants a deal, and no sooner, because to do so would be to leave money at the table.
 
Flyingitalian,

I think you are confused. ALPA striking? What are you talking about?
And yes, the F/A's do have balls! Their past negotiations have proven this time and again.
 
Flyingitalian said:
. . What will be the outcome if ALPA calls a strike? What could possibly be gained at this late date? Are the passengers just going to wait for U management to make things right according to ALPA? The answer of course is NO. . .
ALPA can't (and won't) strike after the recent ratification of their tentative agreement. Only AFA and IAM remain in transformation plan negotiations, and the legal basis for an "authorized" strike following the potential abrogation of their contracts is still unclear.

Speedbird34 said:
You sound like a doomsday prophet who wants to push his veiws.US Airways is`undergoing a brutal transformation to a low cost carrier and its workers are going to conform to a large degree or find themselves on the cold hard streets. While the other airlines greedily move in to take over their flying. It seems to me you fly for one of this other airlines.
I think any discussion of issues involves opinions, and that is what this web board promotes. What you claim as "doomsday" prophecy, I counter as realism (tomato, tomoto I guess). We can agree to disagree with the topic, but after almost 16 years on the line there, in the training department, and an ALPA co-chair, I think I've at least earned the perspective.

Irregardless, I have many friends still there, and (as I've stated before) only hope the best for each of them.

Have a safe Holiday Season!

Red
 
BeCareful! said:
Flyingitalian,

F/A's do have balls! Their past negotiations have proven this time and again.
Having "balls" implies action in the face of great risk. Tell me again what exactly is the great risk to these F/As?
 
FA's at USAir mainline along with other labor groups are still making more than some of the skilled labor throughout the USAir system. If the company is making money, great...pay the FA's and the rest of the groups what their contracts are calling for. If you are losing it like they are, what else can you do? I realize management has screwed up in the past, however this is the last chance and unfortunatly Lakefield has been left with a load in his lap. Good luck to all throughout the USAirways system over the next several weeks.
 
Well, Flyingitalian, back in 2000 those F/A's that you seem to know very little about were making three times what a typical regional FO makes, had a retirement, and had work rules that most pilots would envy (especially by today's standards). They put it all on the line and Management blinked, i.e. didn't follow through with their threat of shutting the airline down.

You apparently think they have little to lose at this point; that's your opinion, but I think that's a fairly arrogant stance. It's their job, their lifestyle, if not their primary source of income.

I guess you make how much?
 
BeCareful! said:
I guess you make how much?
Apparently you seem to think I have some sort of angst for the U F/As. However in 2000 the industry was quite different in terms of available labor pool...bla bla bla. Look who cares I dont know why Im wasting my time with this. Bottom line is I dont blame them for striking (as Ive said previously) if they choose to do so, the job has been whittled down by incompetent management and I can completely understand and share their anger. A strike will kill the airline what a month sooner? so what?
 
Perhaps the F/As want to quicken the inevitable by striking and be home for the holidays.
 
tscarecrow said:
Perhaps the F/As want to quicken the inevitable by striking and be home for the holidays.
Now that's a thought, but not likely. Any job action (outright walk or CHAOS) won't occur until the judge actually grants the company's request to abrogate their contract, and Judge Mitchell has said he would wait until after the holidays to rule.
 
>>>>>Tell me again what exactly is the great risk to these F/As?<<<


Italianguy,

Those were your words. I never said or implied that you had "angst", just arrogance.

You said you didn't know why you were wasting your time on this. We don't know, either.
 
BeCareful! said:
Well, Flyingitalian, back in 2000 those F/A's that you seem to know very little about were making three times what a typical regional FO makes, had a retirement, and had work rules that most pilots would envy (especially by today's standards). They put it all on the line and Management blinked, i.e. didn't follow through with their threat of shutting the airline down.

You apparently think they have little to lose at this point; that's your opinion, but I think that's a fairly arrogant stance. It's their job, their lifestyle, if not their primary source of income.

I guess you make how much?
U Management "blinked" back in 2000. So what? It seems to me that the only thing on the plate back then as far as Management was concerned was getting the merger done with UAL. Even though the deal was announced after the situation with the F/As, the plan itself was in motion long before that. If you had a bunch of bozos ready to offer $63 a share back then, would you have been thinking of anything else or rocking the boat? Taking on the F/As, beyond doing nothing more than looking tough, was not on U management's agenda anyway.

The bottom line seems to be that for the majority of the U F/As, there is not going to be enough of a premium left in the job to justify doing it. May as well have a job a short drive away that allows you to sleep in your own bed at night. If the majority feel this way and understand that a strike guarantees the end of it, then you can't blame them at all for deciding to walk away.
 
One Reason Airlines
Keep Flying Despite
Huge Losses: GE
No. 1 Aircraft Lessor Aims
To Avoid Grounding Planes;
One Side Effect: Low Fares
December 14, 2004; Page D8

It's a financial miracle that U.S. airlines have kept flying despite $25 billion in losses over the past four years.

Gee? No, GE.

General Electric Co. has been a major behind-the-scenes player in keeping troubled airlines in the air. It isn't alone, but it has made some of the most significant moves, such as a recent deal with US Airways Group Inc. that gives the airline more hope for survival.

For travelers, such help amounts to a subsidy of low fares. Instead of airlines going out of business, the financial assistance has kept a lot of seats in the air, and airlines have slashed prices to historically low levels to fill them.

Plenty of deep-pocketed entities have helped airlines through the recent crisis. From the government to several aircraft-leasing companies to American Express Co., which sells tickets and has a business in frequent-flier miles, many parties have been willing to renegotiate debt and give carriers more cash on top of bad loans. The state of Indiana even loaned hometown carrier ATA Airlines $15.5 million to keep it flying, preserving -- at least temporarily -- both local jobs and air service. On top of that, airline employees have made deep sacrifices to keep carriers flying.

But no single entity has done more than GE to keep the sickest airlines flying world-wide. GE says it has invested more than $7 billion in airlines around the world since the 2001 terrorist attacks. GE helped prop up America West Airlines and helped finance Air Canada's reorganization. GE is the biggest creditor at bankrupt UAL Corp., the parent of United Airlines, with $1.6 billion at stake. Ditto for US Airways, where GE has nearly $3 billion at stake, according to financial filings.

This fall, GE struck a deal to loan Delta Air Lines $630 million and help it avoid a bankruptcy filing. And just recently, GE agreed to free up an additional $140 million that US Airways owed it, taking a convertible loan instead of cash. That deal still is subject to bankruptcy-court approval and other conditions.

For GE, the world's largest aircraft-leasing firm, pumping money into airlines is in part a way to avoid potentially huge losses from an airline collapse. GE, which has 1,239 airplanes and $29 billion of airplane loans and leases, has an interest in keeping its leased planes in circulation.

GE says it only does deals where it thinks it can profit -- and is plenty willing to take back airplanes from failing carriers and rent them someplace else. When it helps prop up airlines, it's "because we think we make a lot of money on it," says Henry Hubschman, president and chief executive of GE Capital Aviation Services and the transportation-financing unit of GE Commercial Finance. "The time you do best is when they are most in need of money," he says.

While airlines are losing billions, the commercial-aircraft unit, known as Gecas, still is making millions. The unit earned at least $450 million in both 2002 and 2003, even after write-downs of more than $200 million a year. GE expects similar results this year.

Mr. Hubschman says GE is standing firm at some U.S. carriers he won't name -- and says GE likely will pull planes out of failing airlines soon. Already, GE has a still-unannounced deal to take 18 airplanes out of the U.S. and lease them abroad. GE also has taken back planes from many foreign airlines, such as Brazil's Varig and Italy's Volare.

But if the airline can show a good business plan, GE is willing to help the carrier through tough times. It weighs that along with the likelihood it can find a new home for its airplanes and what it would cost to move planes.

Propping up carriers after Sept. 11, 2001, proved to be a good strategy for lessors, avoiding a crush of grounded airplanes. The market for used planes has improved considerably since then. Now, they can pick and choose who to prop up and, if need be, judiciously redistribute their planes.

At Delta, GE signed a three-year loan that Delta said was "secured by substantially all of Delta's remaining unencumbered assets." One thing GE asked for in return was a provision for Delta to take about 40 small regional jets in the future, if GE wanted. GE happens to have 39 regional jets on lease at US Airways.

At US Airways, GE has hedged its bet. The carrier was in need of cash last month, and GE was willing to help -- but it also wanted to start limiting its exposure by taking some of its airplanes back. US Airways agreed to give up only 25 -- 10 Airbus 319s and 15 Boeing 737-300s. GE says it already has found new homes for all 25. (These planes are unrelated to the other 18 GE planes soon to leave the U.S.) Foreign airlines will take the 319s; the 737s likely will be converted to cargo carriers.

US Airways says the latest GE deal, which includes lots of deadlines and financial hurdles, is a "catalyst" toward completing its restructuring. But it also requires the airline to come up with another $100 million in liquidity by January. "It shows momentum and it's a vote of confidence from our largest creditor," spokesman Chris Chiames said.

Analysts and competing airline executives bemoan the industry's inability to shed unprofitable capacity. If an airline or two went out of business, the finances of the survivors likely would brighten. But it's hard to ever get the airline industry to economic equilibrium, because so many stakeholders are willing to pump in new money and bet better days are ahead.

Write to Scott McCartney at [email protected]2

URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB110297829238498985,00.html
 
skykid said:
It is easy to say U mgt is terrible. How about somebody posting what they should have done these last few years?
How about the fact that the USAir pilots have for years been at the throughts of management trying to convince them that having NINE, yes NINE, different acft configurations on property was going to kill them in the long run? They had 767, 757, 727,737-100, -200, -300, F-100, DC-9-30, MD-80's! Whew!

Consider for a moment the hundreds of millions a year in extra MX/Fuel/Training for pilots and mechanics/spare parts, and on and on...just to keep old acft around?

In addition it is well known that USAir management was perfectly happy not listening to their employees regarding cost savings. Just go back to any archived boards or newsletters.

There is no argument in my mind that USAir management is at fault. Remember, it is the fudisiary responsibility of manegement, NOT EMPLOYEES, to maintain the health of the company. Through healthy labor relations and an atmosphere of inclusion, USAir management COULD have turned this company around before 2001 to be the most profitable carrier in the US.

Later.
 
BeCareful! said:
>>>>>Tell me again what exactly is the great risk to these F/As?<<<


Italianguy,

Those were your words. I never said or implied that you had "angst", just arrogance.
QUOTE]

Its arrogant to point out that they dont have that much to lose? Is it not obvious to you that U is in its death spiral? Its not obvious to you that striking would be the equivalent of saying "we would rather not have this job for what you want to pay us." Its not obvious that a strike is the end of U? I offer my sympathy for FAs who are getting screwed and you call it arrogance?

Im wondering why Im wasting my time with a moron like you. You want arrongant...up yours! Now that is arrogant.
 
Great point Cappy. I would still contend that even if U mgt figured a way to sell crack on the airplanes for huge profits, they are in a market situation where there is not a lot of hope. They face extreme LCC competition in their limited domestic market and have virtually no presence overseas. I don't think simplifying the fleet would have been enough.
Through healthy labor relations and an atmosphere of inclusion, USAir management COULD have turned this company around before 2001 to be the most profitable carrier in the US.
Give some details of how they could have done this. I would just like to know what you mean.
 
Sorry to post blindly here, as I have no dog in this fight, but is it even legal to invoke self-help while under Chapter 11 protection?

And if so, correct me if I'm wrong, but the average training time from start to finish for F/As is about 6 weeks?

What leverage against management is that? They can avoid CBA by firing the F/As and hire an all new force at 1/3rd the pay. Bonus for them. That is, unless the picket line is strong enough to stop anybody currently unemployed (or even some currently-employed regional guys that make less than UAIR F/As) from starting training.

I agree with the sentiment, but is the act correct given the overall environment?

FLAME PROOF SUIT ON
 

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