It's A Rental Don't Be Gentle

seattle

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For those of you guys/gals flying "the line"; are leased aircraft treated any differently than company owned aircraft? If so, how?

Thanks.

Seattle
 

AWACoff

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Not from what I have seen in my limited experience. There's no point in abusing an airplane that you yourself may have to hop back into the next week. Plus many aircraft have parameters recorded that maintenance downloads. It's not too hard to track down which crew was using "Warp 9" when they should have been at "thrusters". Sorry 'bout the Star Trek quotes. I'm a furloughed Scifi geek.
 

Timebuilder

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No impulse power in space dock.
 

Cardinal

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From a corporate perspective i believe that many leases require the aircraft to be returned to the lessor in essentially the same condition that it was delivered in, ie zero-timed engines, fresh heavy checks, etc. Add the fact that these "leased" aircraft may serve the same company for decades, it makes little sense for any deference to be shown.
 

avbug

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Never mistreat anything you're butt is stapled to; treat it like your life depends on it, because it does.

Always return a man's equipment in better condition than you received it.
 

Eagle

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avbug said:
Never mistreat anything you're butt is stapled to; treat it like your life depends on it, because it does.

Always return a man's equipment in better condition than you received it.
this is the same arguement I have offered to some student pilots who say. "Yeah I did a million spins hammerheads and rolls etc etc, and it was a 172 or a cherokee.."

it may not damage the aircraft this time, or next,

but eventually the noise you hear during your flight

... well

that is the wing slapping against the rudder.
 

bobbysamd

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Treating airplanes

Be nice to your airplane and it will be nice to you.

We had (at least) one smartass at Riddle who rolled a 172. The techs figured it out by looking at the skins or rivets or something. They weren't born yesterday, you know. The student was shown the door, something unusual for Riddle to do.
 

avbug

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In fairness, anything can be rolled without overstressing it (ask tex johnson about the 707). It's not so much the act, as the stress. If damage is done then accountability is in order. In the case of the student, aside from equipment damage, judgement alone deserved the actions taken by Riddle.

When I got my first corporate job in a Sabreliner, I had the short course for groundschool. At the conclusion of the ground element, before the flight training, the instructor asked if I had any questions. I firmly believe that one should never say the first thing that comes to mind, but I'm frequently guilty of doing it. I said, "How does it roll?"

The instructor and chief pilot glanced at each other, and didn't say much. At the conclusion of our flight training, the instructor took the airplane, and proceeded to roll it with the chief pilot kneeling between the seats. Nice, smooth 1G rolls, and it flies beautifully.

It's not so much what you do with it, but how you do it.
 

Eagle

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my point is more along the line of undetected damage to the airframe. you may not pop rivets, or stress the skin, but after a while of "everyone doing it" you wear it down.

The day I did some spins in a 152, non aerobat it was a riot. the ONLY thing I retain now, is how much more time it takes to recover ( and altitude) you loose when you do more and more, we had done a half dozen revolutions.. and you stress on the airplane in stopping the spin, was apparent to the two of us. Much harder feel on the controls etc…

Having also done an accelerated stall in an extra, that gets your attention fast. Imagine doing it in a 152/172, that can not be a good thing.

Aerobatics in aircraft that can do aerobatics with pilots who can do aerobatics.. are fun.

The rest is chopping away at the integrity of the airframe.
 
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avbug

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Eagle,

If you're overstressing an airplane during a spin, you're doing it wrong.

An airplane doen't "know" if it's right side up or down. Most basic aerobatic maneuvers can be maintained at less than 2 G's. I'm certainly not going to advocate that someone does aerobatics in aircraft that are not approved for aerobatics. However, the mere fact that they are conducted does not mean the aircraft has been exposed to undue stress.

The Sabreliner and Twin Commander that RA Hoover flew in the airshow routines were essentially stock (the commander had some minor rigging differences with respect to control counterweights). I later flew a commander used by Hoover, and there was absolutely nothing wrong with the airplane. I did the wing mod AD and had a chance to look that airplane over quite well, in addition to putting a few hundred hours on it, and there was no evidence of stress. However, I would never attept to duplicate Mr. Hoover's routine, either.

The biggest stresses encounteed in spinning, and in any aerobatic maneuver, are in the instruments. Rapid bearing wear is the big issue, with the subsequent early deminse of gyro instruments.
 

Clearsky

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Thats one thing that bugs me about renting. You never know if the airframe might have hidden damage because some guy was up just before you doing loops and rolls or hit the tail hard on the runway while landing.
 

ShawnC

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I personally can't wait for that Lear 23 routine that they are going to do at Sun n Fun this year. Personally I will be there this Saturday - Tuesday.
 

seattle

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Thanks all for the info.

A co-worker and I were talking about a proposed limit of validity (LOV) program being looked into by the FAA. We were wondering if an airplane could/should be built for leasing only - never actually sold. This would be in an attempt to keep more control over the maintenance and end of life aspects. This issue of LOV is just in the "conversation" phase, so don't be looking for any new NPRM's or mx programs in the near future.


As far as stresses in an aircraft structure go.....

"....we had done a half dozen revolutions.. and you stress on the airplane in stopping the spin, was apparent to the two of us. Much harder feel on the controls etc… "

I am a structures analyst (stress man) for Boeing. I was with McDonnell Douglas prior to the merger. Having said that, if your airplane is being stressed such that you can notice a change in the control inputs after doing successive maneuvers (of the exact same type), you've got big problems. It sounds like something is slipping.


Seattle
 

A Squared

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Seattle,

I think the Eagle meant it was a harder feel on the controls compared the doing it in a C-150 Aerobat, not that it got harder the more spins they did in the same airplane.

regards
 

Eagle

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FlyChicaga said:
....Unless you hesitate on the pullout (let the a/s build up), .
if your airspeed is building, you are in a spiral, not a spin. that is a BAD thing...


A Squared said:
Seattle,

I think the Eagle meant it was a harder feel on the controls compared the doing it in a C-150 Aerobat, not that it got harder the more spins they did in the same airplane.

regards
sorta. it was more the point that the more spins you do the longer, (time/alt) it takes to recover. guess it is the momentum?



I know this may be somewhat of a surprise. But Student pilots, with 60 hours, and CFIs with 400, are not Bob Hoover. It is in the subtleties of the maneuvers that make it effortless(on the airframe) Sort of like the subtleties in my post…..which some of you have missed….

Let me highlight them again…


Aerobatics in aircraft that can do aerobatics with pilots who can do aerobatics .. are fun.


As for the 152, vs the 152 Aerobat. if the airfame can take it, why to they have a heavy duty strut on the aerobat? if the manuver is done right it should not be needed??? correct?

the answer is, NOT all of the manuvs are done correctly. and should not be done in non aerobatic certified aircraft.
 
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avbug

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Eagle,

Either you're doing it correctly, or you're not. There isn't a half way point in a spin. Either the aircraft is spinning, or it's in a spiral. If damage is occuring or stress occurs to the airframe as the result of a spin, it wasn't a spin, it was a spiral. The two look the same, but there isn't an airspeed increase in the spin; it's in a stalled condition rotating about the vertical and longitudinal axes (and frequently the lateral axis, as well).

One cannot afford to say that simply because one has less hours or experience, pushing an airplane to it's limits is acceptable, or will simply happen. Not good enough. If a 400 hour instructor is incapable of doing it properly, then he has no business doing it or teaching it, period. That's what the instructor is paid for; not to learn at the student's expense (and potential risk to life and property).

With respect to spinning, as no undue stresses are placed on the airframe, the strut strength makes little difference. To spin or not to spin comes down to two things: certification issues (is it legal), and capability issues (is it safe). Unless both can be answered in the affirmative, then it simply doesn't fly.
 

Eagle

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avbug said:
Eagle,

Either you're doing it correctly, or you're not.
like I said.

Aerobatics in aircraft that can do aerobatics with pilots who CAN do aerobatics .. are fun.
 
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