Is this possible @ PCL

[CX880]

Well is it such a big surprise that it's come to this? 200 hour RJ pilots? Flight training costs are unreasonably very high, it's not an easy proffesion to begin with and add in the fact that salaries are way down, pilots aren't respected by companies. With the way things are, I'm surprised they even have people showing up with the mins. People are willing moving to the Middle East just so they can have some dignity, it's come to that.

 

[Casper]

CX880,
You are right on the money with that one...

 

[Flyer1015]

People are willing moving to the Middle East just so they can have some dignity, it's come to that.

Hey! Don't knock on Emirates! Lots of US pilots have gone over to EK, and enjoy it. Typhoon_Pilot is one of them.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Global airlines have been hiring guys with 200-250 hrs for years. It is just recently that the US is doing it.

Yes but not the same really, Cadet programs abroad are a year long with a very strict selection process. The training for first officers are in most cases 40 to 50 sim rides (The short courses for experienced pilots are six months and about 25 sim rides) and in top of that 2 months of LOT (OE for us)
It is NOT the same as "pressure cooking" somebody through

 

[JohnnyP]

.....

Yes but not the same really, Cadet programs abroad are a year long with a very strict selection process. The training for first officers are in most cases 40 to 50 sim rides (The short courses for experienced pilots are six months and about 25 sim rides) and in top of that 2 months of LOT (OE for us)
It is NOT the same as "pressure cooking" somebody through

This isnt totally directed at you, but comparing florida puppy mills to a cadet program overseas. I understand the selection, training, etc is a bit more for the cadet deal, but both the puppy and the cadet are still green with zero real world experience when they hit the right seat (assuming they both went from school right to their respective jet). So whats the difference? I wasnt aware that a good, intense training and selection program can substitute for experience gained in the field.

But, it doesnt bother me that a guy overseas can go right into an airbus at 300 hrs. He/she will learn just like everyone else did. Just like the guys in the states did.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

This isnt totally directed at you, but comparing florida puppy mills to a cadet program overseas. I understand the selection, training, etc is a bit more for the cadet deal, but both the puppy and the cadet are still green with zero real world experience when they hit the right seat (assuming they both went from school right to their respective jet). So whats the difference? I wasnt aware that a good, intense training and selection program can substitute for experience gained in the field.

But, it doesnt bother me that a guy overseas can go right into an airbus at 300 hrs. He/she will learn just like everyone else did. Just like the guys in the states did.

I agree with you, nothing can substitude real world experience but comprehensive training makes all the difference in the world. Having been in training for many years I can tell you that the requirements for the majority of the 121 regional operators are very basic at best, the parameters to sign somebody on the line are such of preparing a voice activated autopilot that operating into complicated airspaces and heavy ground traffic airports for the first few months of operations these guys are more of a burden than help.
By your comment I gather that you think that an individual that does 150 hours of sim training and 100 hours + of OE is not any more prepared than a puppy mill product, I disagree.

 

[Papps]

I think what it comes down to, is that most of us had to fly random crap for thousands of hours just to be able to beg for a regional interview. Now they are handing out jobs to very low time guys who may not even be sure they want to be pilots, they just had wealthy parents and six months to kill for training, so they are "trying out" the regionals. Nothing wrong with it, it just annoys the crap out of us.

 

[Lear70]

for the first few months of operations these guys are more of a burden than help.

Bingo!

Combine that with a real emergency and you've got a recipe for disaster.

Not to mention you'll have new-hire CA's who have probably never seen an RJ beign paired with the low-time new-hires...

God willing, we won't see one of those, but the possibility of it scares me to death. Just told the wife she has to DRIVE down to Destin, simply because none of the surrounding airports are served by mainline service.

NOT putting my family on an RJ at any of the carriers that are practicing this type of hiring.

 

[Papps]

Originally Posted by StuckMic
After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain.

haha thats an awsome quote. Or like the riddle guys from the capt program. something like " people say there is no substitute for experience, we disagree, we don't think experience equals decision making." People are so balls to the wall right after they get out of training.

 

[Lear70]

Originally Posted by StuckMic
After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain.

haha thats an awsome quote. Or like the riddle guys from the capt program. something like " people say there is no substitute for experience, we disagree, we don't think experience equals decision making." People are so balls to the wall right after they get out of training.

I think every single person at AIR, Inc last year (January) snorted their water right out their nose when he got up on stage and quoted that now-infamous line...

I know I didn't stop laughing for 20 minutes or so, and completely missed anything that was said during that time period while a couple other PCL CA's seated nearby and I exchanged some pretty amusing glances along with some rolled eyes.

"Life's hard. It's harder when you're stupid."

 

[hoover]

Am I the only one that thinks everyone should do a little single pilot, night fieght prior to flying 50 plus people???

Has it ever occurred to you that at some point in your life, there was likely someone who thought YOU shouldn't be where you are? That is probably true of all of us. Here's a suggestion: Wait until they actually fail the checkride or IOE before you pronounce your assessment of what they should or should not be doing. Better yet, spend a month flying with them yourself, then make your decision. In any case, it shouldn't matter what is in the back. People or boxes, 1 or 100, a pilot is either qualified, or he is not.

You'd do better to stop rhapsodizing about the way things "ought" to be, and instead focus on the way things are. It doesn't matter who "should" be in what seat. The fact is they are there, and it is not helpful to anybodyto criticize the how's and why's of it.

If you really think that the low time pilot is unsafe, then make a command decision. Refuse to fly with him. You are, after all, the Captain.

 

[JohnnyP]

..........

By your comment I gather that you think that an individual that does 150 hours of sim training and 100 hours + of OE is not any more prepared than a puppy mill product, I disagree.

Well, here is what I think. (And trust me, I have been wrong a few times in the past, so ive got an open mind about myself and my ideas, sort of I had the FO remind me how to calculate Zulu time in my area today! See, im always humble and responsive to my mistakes!!!!

Do you think that a certain number of simulator hours combined with twice as much IOE is going to make THAT much of a difference? (As above, I dont deal with simulator instructing for the airlines, bear with me!) After all, remember, our candidate in question still has 265 TT. He/She just finished setting the mixture on the Duchess, now they are dealing with an Airbus/Boeing. Book knowledge only goes so far.

But in response, I would say that in certain ways someone with more Sim/Ioe time would be more prepared than someone with less, how could they not be.

After that, I still do not have a problem with the cadet scheme. They will be paired with a captain who knows what is going on, etc. It has worked in the past, and I do not see many airplanes falling out of the sky in the future because of the programs.

Again, just an outsider looking in.

JohnnyP

 

[PositionandHold]

I heard that Pinnacle just hired an accountant into the right seat.

 

[CoATP]

In any case, it shouldn't matter what is in the back. People or boxes, 1 or 100, a pilot is either qualified, or he is not.

Ah yes and you are in favor of removing the rules for 135 vs 121; 135 freight vs 135 scheduled passenger; 91 vs anything; and I guess ATP ratings.

I guess you feel once the ink is on the certificate learning ceases.

This goes in my "WHAT!" folder along with the 1500hr quote.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Just told the wife she has to DRIVE down to Destin, simply because none of the surrounding airports are served by mainline service.

Wait a minute... You are letting ur wife drive to Destin for spring break by herself... Nice one buddy !!! Ill be looking out for her next time in DTS!

 

[buckwheat]

Actually, 40 years ago, a newhire prolly rode sideways on the panel but good point, nonetheless...but I don't think the DC3 had autofeather or auto anything for that matter.

No but it does have feather buttons..

 

[Dumb Pilot]

But in response, I would say that in certain ways someone with more Sim/Ioe time would be more prepared than someone with less, how could they not be.

JohnnyP

That was the point I wanted to make, that if the companies are going to continue the practice of hiring "green" they should at least give them the logistical support they need to be better prepared to do their job.

The mentality of "Minimum rest" "minimum salary" "minimum crew" "minimum service" "minimum training" "and minimum pride" is essentially un American imho

 

[Lear70]

Wait a minute... You are letting ur wife drive to Destin for spring break by herself... Nice one buddy !!! Ill be looking out for her next time in DTS!

Easy there, killer... she's going at the end of May. Spring break will be over.

And yeah, I'm letting her go with 3 of her girlfriends. Just them.

Hmmm... maybe I should rethink this.

Seriously, I'm taking a deep sea fishing / scuba trip by my lonesome the month after that down at one of those all-inclusives in the Dominican Republic, so I guess it's all fair.