Is this Job a Joke?

[Gulfstream 200]

If the jackoff in back is afraid of one of the guys flying (weird) than maybe he should pony up the dough to have 2 fully qualified captains up there????

Oh, yeah, thats right, he does not want to pony up the dough.........

Let the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** F/Os fly, how else you going to learn? Just cuz' you were abused as a child does not mean you need to carry on the tradition.

 

[Rick1128]

Gulfstream, what makes you think it was the f/o he was afraid of? There is more to the story. Like a past history on the owner's part. A management company hiring the pilots, no input from the owner, etc.

100 1/2, thank you for your comments. While I would mcuh prefer to use sims for training and checkrides, my issue was the comments that a non-sim trained pilot was of low quality. It is not necessarily true. As for convincing the boss, I don't care if you were the salesman of the year at 'Honest Jim Bob's Used Car Lot'. If is a difficult sell when:

1. The company has been in business for 35 years with a good safety record. Not too many companies can say that.

2. Under the same ownership. The list gets shorter.

3. We are growing. In other words adding aircraft.

4. Hiring. Adding pilots.

5. The pile of resumes on the desk keeps getting higher.

Like any small company should, they count the pennies. Wish some of the big ones did the same, refer to the stock market. They are profitable. And considering all the facts, based on my many years in this industry, and a lot of thought, if it comes down to sim training or profitability, I have to go with profitability. It means the company can do the little things, like maintenance. Before the comments start, yeah there are companies out there that do put profit before maintenance. But they tend to get weeded out before too long. I refer to the companies that try to get a few extra days on a MEL item or have a hard time getting parts because they have a past due bill. Too many short cut procedures during maintenance. Things like that.

 

[501261]

Found this on AvCrew.com

Entry Level Co-Pilot (TX) 2/5

FAR 135 Air Carrier and Aircraft Management company is looking for an entry level co-pilot. This is an entry level position and the duties, schedule, and pay are based on this. You will be required to complete FAR 135 training as a SIC in our Westwinds and Jet Commander and do the normal SIC duties. Additional duties will include revising more Jeppesens than you should have to, restocking the aircraft immediately after a flight (even at 3AM) and not telling the Director of Operations how to run the company. For pilots with a good attitude and very good flying skills there is room for advancement to our larger jets. If interested in applying for this position, please fax your resume to Don Wilson, Director of Operations at (713) 644-8823.

I'd hate to change this discussion from the interesting sim v airplane training back to the original question, but I've flown with old Don a few times (and no I don't work there or in Houston).

This job is what it is, an entry level 135 copilot. It's certainly not a career or other good job, but you will build good quality time, in a variety of jets, with the ability to upgrade as soon as your skills let you.

I mean, you'll be flying a Jet Commode under 135 that's pretty low on the totem pole of aviation. Now having said that, I have certainly known and worked for a lot worse people than Don Wilson.

The reason you'll be doing jepps and stocking, is because they employ a bunch of contract captains (and those Delta 767 captains don't seem to do there fair share of revisions).

By the way I believe they send their copilots to FS (obviously not voluntarily, insurance requirement).

Bottom-line, yes they are a cheap operator, but there are much, much worse!

 

[Bally]

Boeingav8or:

Stay with the airlines! With your atitude, you would'nt make it past the first week at our Company. The VIP's who you say "think their S--t don't stink, happen to be the people who are responsible for the standard of living you enjoy today. The CEO of a Fortune 50 Corporation is literally responsible for the livelyhoods of hundres of thousands of people. Should they get a level of service beyond the airlines? Absolutely!

Folks who get to the level of a CEO at a company like GE or Motorola, are typically much brighter than the average Joe flying on the airlines. As such, they expect a level of service that far exceeds what the airlines where designed to provide. It is our job to provide it. Personally, I find this very challenging and rewarding.

As far as having the FO fly live legs. In our Company, (a Fortune 50 Corp.) it is at the sole descretion of the the Captain. If I have the CEO on-board, or a former President of the United States, I will do what ever is necessary to ensure that the ride is smooth. That may mean flying the leg myself. I have also had FO's who land the jet smoother than me at times. There are times when you butter them all on, and other times when you are just off.

Being an aviator in Corporate aviation is another planet from being an aviator for an airline. Both are great jobs, but very different.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Co-captain crews are the only way to solve this.

That and not hiring insecure creeps to be captains in the first place. These guys are terrified that their new FO will fly as well as they do. I'll guess that many times they will do better. Know why? They are spending all their time stroking their own fragile ego that they probably lack many of the skills that they think their FO needs to develop. I'd like to have the boss sit in the sim during annual training and decide if this one sided crap is justified. A lot of pilots would not enjoy this type of scrutiny, but it would be highly revealing, wouldn't it?

 

[WhiteCloud]

A couple of our pilots are single pilot qualified (C-441) but we fly two pilots when able (ops specs) and often times those are the hardest flights - trying to integrate a crew environment with a Single Pilot PIC mentality.

A lot of these folks are forgetting that most Biz Jets are two pilot aircraft. Without proper training that second seater can be more of a liability than a help. It truly amazes me that some Captains and companies don't provide adequate training for the people responsible for their lives. Ziggy1

 

[100-1/2]

"...single pilot qualified (C-441) but we fly two pilots when able (ops specs)..."

A C-441 is an aircraft requiring 2 pilots? :\

I can't believe I missed that one. Oh what an (flammable) opportunity!

 

[Freight Dog]

Being a gear bitch, if that, is no way to groom an FO to be a captain. If the FO is not proficient with the airplane, then he/she should not be on the line - they should be given additional training to be proficient. Slapping them in the plane and have them be gear bitches and toilet cleaners without letting them get the experience necessary to move up is definitely doing them disservice. There are CRM issues in this, and I find it strange that a 19,000 hour check airman cannot see this.

 

[Deftone45075]

I guess i've gotten pretty lucky in the sense that all the captains at my company (since i've been there) have been furloughed airline. I've gotten at least every other leg, if not more. I may have needed a lot of tips and pointers in the beginning, but by doing a lot of flying early on, I go up to speed in the plane real fast. I don't see why others would not do the same, this way you have an FO who can shoot approaches to mins, handle turbulence and WS, and fly high speed to short approaches, and to top it off, the captain wn't have to babysit the FO....he'll know he is capable and won't have to worry.

I hope it's not the norm in the Corporate world, as that is a path I have been interested in going. But i'll decline if i'm looked at as a gear monkey.

 

[jergar999]

The company I work for hired us as FO's, alternating legs from day 1. After a few months, they trained us in start procedures, etc and let us fly from the left seat every other leg. Our second checkride was taken in the left seat, so now we can fly either seat on either leg at the captains discretion. It sure makes the transition to captain a lot easier, making the same decisions and taking the same checkrides. I am not there yet, but the company I work for has said from day one that if they wouldn't put you in a captains position they wouldn't hire you as an FO. True CRM and confidence in the flight crew makes things safer and easier for all involved. I still have a lot to learn I realize, but I am very grateful that I have great people to learn from who are also willing to accept my input. An FO that won't open his/her mouth if they think something is wrong or that can't fully operate the aircraft is just dead weight, and no safer than having only one pilot. Maybe we're just lucky in that the pax have never complained about who is flying, or maybe it's that they have seen every pilot in every seat, and have full confidence in everyone.

Just the humble opinion of a low time FO who is happy to be working in this market.

 

[Rick1128]

Dog,

You need to learn how to read and understand ENGLISH. It was never said that the f/o is just a gear bitch. All that was stated was that a PIC must use GOOD JUDGEMENT. He is also expected to follow company policy. If policy is that F/O's fly only from the right seat, they fly from the right seat!

As a check airman, I am required to grade pilots on judgement. I expect them to exercise common sense and good judgement. Each F/O is different and the PIC must use his judgement on how far he will go with each F/O. A strong F/O, you let do more than one who is not as experienced. The PIC is responsible for the aircraft and what happens. Even if the F/O does it. The PIC will then be hammered on lack of judgement and justifibly so.

It also depends on the type of operation and the time available, if the PIC has the F/O do things like flight plans and paperwork or PIC duties. And I do not expect my F/O to keep their mouths shut. I do expect them to be clear and concise on their concerns. As that makes it easier to discuss the issue with them. Crew Resource Management is a two way street. The PIC has responsibilities as do the other crew members.

 

[Freight Dog]

Rick,

I believe "reading and speaking English" is a pre-requisite to hold U.S. ATP which I hold, so you can leave your petty insults at the door, and discuss the topic.

Secondly, sure, you are required to "follow company procedures" etc. You also stated that the customers want you to fly and not the FO because you are Mr. Smoothride.

You also state that you will only let the FO fly a non-rev leg just to "check him out and see what (you) have to work with."

It seems like to me that you don't give them adequate training to be fully functional crewmembers to begin with. Secondly, it seems to be that you let your customers decide who flies why and how. Now, I don't know about you, but I am a stickler when it comes to Captain's authority, and no passenger of mine will tell me who gets to fly my airplane. Thirdly, if you fly a two-pilot aircraft, it is imperative that BOTH crewmembers are fully-trained, functioning, proficient and have company's and captains' confidence that they can provide just as smooth ride as the captains could, and can be a valuable asset in an emergency. Any other way, and it reflects the piss-poor company training and management. It may not reflect in day-to-day operations, but in an emergency, you might as well have dead weight in that right seat.

 

[Rick1128]

First of all I have no issue with your last paragraph in the most part. It is the other ones I take issue with. I never said I was Capt Smoothride. The issue in question was that the charter client was not comfortable with the f/o. I don't know why and not able to find out. I believe it was due to the f/o's interaction with the client. But in a small two aircraft charter operation, if a $60k a month client requests something, if it doesn't adversely effect safety, he generally gets it. In the corporate enviroment, if it doesn't adversely effect safety, what the CEO, COB or President wants, they get. Remember, if they become unhappy with the service (and this is a service business) it is you the gets the ax, not the VP who you answer to. Safety is another issue. Remember these people directly sign your paycheck. At this level, they don't have to be reasonable, they are the boss and they know it. I have seen a pilot fired because he didn't use enough brake on landing. And a flight department shut down because the pilots ran an aircraft off the end of a runway. Airline crews are a little more fortunate in that the passengers have very little input in who flys the aircraft. About the only thing they can do if they are unhappy is put their butts on someone else's airline. While airline crews are more or less insulated from these issues, in the charter or corporate world, I fight the battles that are important and save my political capital for the times I need it. Like being told to go below minimums or use a runway that is too short, etc.

As a check airman, I generally know what I have to work with, as I most likely did their checkride. But checkrides do differ from regular line flying. And a checkride is just your authorization to go out and learn. Back when I just a simple line pilot, the first leg a new f/o flew would normally be a non-passenger leg. It usually ended up being the first leg of the day. And Yes, it was because I wanted to see what I had to work with. And I don't apoligize about it either. I was fortunate to work with some very excellent Captains early in my career and the advice they each gave me when I upgraded was very similar.

Use good judgement.

Know your limits.

Know your F/O's limits.

Fight the battles you need to fight.

And stop putting words into my mouth. The main thing I have been advocating is that PIC's must exercise good judgement. They must keep in mind not only their limitations but also the F/O's limitations and use that information accordingly. And it varies from aircraft to aircraft and from operator to operator. A Part 121, B737 operator going between long ILS runways has different considerations than a Part 135 air ambulance Lear 24 operator doing night flights into Mexico.

I expect and insist that my f/o's know the aircraft systems and procedures. But it has been my experience that you have to start flying the aircraft before you really start to learn it. By that I mean all the little things they seem to miss in ground school. Like how do you unstick a frozen brake on the runup pad. Or how do you deal with a stuck start valve. That fuel rolling up over the tip tank, did someone forget the fuel cap or is the vent line check valve stuck. You don't learn that in ground school, you learn about that when it happens to you. And my f/o's and I quiz each other on limitations and emergency items. Usually before checkrides. I try to keep it from being too much like a checkride, mostly to prevent personality issues.