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Is Southwest Hiring Mostly Military?

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Resume Writer said:
Of my clients that have been interviewed and hired in the civilian realm, every one of them has had some kind of leadership position at their airline,

Kathy, I understand that you are just the messenger, but I have to ask.

What about the old saying, "too many Chiefs, not enough indians?".

What's wrong with those who have spent years as good old hard working employees? We: show up, don't call in sick, don't leave that boss in a tight spot, pass our checkrides, take concessions when necessary, and are proud to work for a living. Are those qualities of no use?

Calvin

AND, we don't go to a new carrier and attempt to make them into what we used to be. We don't have the, "we didn't do it that way at BrandX" mentality.
 
Benhuntn said:
I went through training in May. My class had 24. There were 11 mil and 13 civ. I don't know what the ratio of mil/civ is at the interviews but I chatted with most interviewees while I was there and it always seemed to be fairly balanced. I would add one more thing. Most mil guys seemed to be older, which equals less time in the company which equals lest overall cost to the company, since they will not be there for 25-30 years like our younger civ. counterparts. Just my thoughts...

WHAT? Have we now shifted to lets not hire civilians because they are younger and will cost the company more wages in their "longer" tenure? I guess my class is unique (according to you) since we had a 49 yr old civilian at the top end and next to the bottom was a 32 yr old ex-Navy pilot. IMHO there is no mold when it comes to each class members background. You are seeing older pilots hired right now because SWA wants Check Airman / Flight Eval experience to be competitive in most cases. Everyone in my class (regardless of background) had done this at some point. The "older" pilots are the only ones who have this qual. in many cases.
 
I'm not taking sides here...

...but there is a theory out there that military pilots have, um, 'infiltrated' training depts and hiring boards in order to help their, um, brothers.

I dunno. Give me a break, ok? I'm a reformed bush pilot.

Carry on.
 
resume writer and chase, you two are highly commendable and provide priceless advice, "I am not worthy".

all do respect but, what they he11? those of us that stepped to the plate and bid for Captain and put up with day in and day out responsiblity, don't have what it takes, because we are JUST CA's????

resume writer, you're saying that we need leadership roles, what is a Captain?

in the soup, down to mins, ice covered runway, peoples' lives in the back....???

chase, you are mine and everyone's hero here, you agree with resume writer, thanks, ok after someone doesn't make it first time around ok try to add some qualifications, but the time is now, sign up for checkairman class, yea, how often and when does that happen, especially at a dying airline??

those of us that are Captain's deserve alittle more respect from peers. we all want the LUV. we want to share it also.

Committee, check airman...???
 
Plenty of non check airmen at SWA dudes so chill. But if you wanna get interviewed in this environment anything you can do to stand out helps. Everyother applicant has been "in the soup down to mins ..." why should they unterviewn you first. Leadership positions is ONE way to stand out.
 
ivauir said:
Plenty of non check airmen at SWA dudes so chill. But if you wanna get interviewed in this environment anything you can do to stand out helps. Everyother applicant has been "in the soup down to mins ..." why should they unterviewn you first. Leadership positions is ONE way to stand out.


Since when is being a Check airman being a "leader"? Check airmen follow the dictates of the Director of flight Standards (or whatever your individual airline calls him/her) and so as to ensure that every pilot is standardized. They don't lead in any way. I don't mean to disrespect their job, nor it's importance, but I find it hard to believe that a CheckAirmans position is a leadership position. Chief Pilots, now they are in a leadership position, to that I'll agree.

You report that there are plenty of non-check airmen at SWA, which is a totally irrelevent figure. How many newhires are not check airmen/leadership pilots? That's a relevent figure. Times have changed, who they hired last year is of no importance when we discuss who is currently being interviewed and hired.

:-)
 
Maybe it’s not really “leadership” they like but people who do more than just flying the line. Most military guys had to do other jobs in addition to flying (not that flying is not a job).



Another point I would like to make is that once military always military. How many “military” guys in the previous poster’s classes had some civilian time like at a regional or a fractional before they started with SWA.



I would wager that military experience puts you in that category for the rest of your career. I never heard anyone say that “I had 10 civilians, 7 military, and 2 ex-military now civilian airline pilots in my new hire class.”
 
Leadership

:-) has a point.

I've been a corporate flight department `Chief Pilot' jack-of-all-aviation-tradesman leader and mentor for 7 years...................NO CALL from SWA with application in since 2002 both paper and on-line.

:confused: Tweek

PS. Back to psychoanalyzing the FAA's gibberish remarks on a DRVSM LOA application so I can get our little hot rod bird up in the FL290-FL410 where it belongs........another chief pilot leadership ancillary job.
 
It's not that checkairmen are better leaders per say. I think being a checkairman gives you more opportunities to be a leader. I've noticed since I became a checkairman that I get many more questions from pilots asking to clear up a policy or reg. You are seen more as an example, too. Am I a better pilot than a non-checkairman? Definitely not! But on paper and in this competitive hiring environment... every little bit helps. I think it shows initiative, too. Again, SWA is looking to hire the best applicant they can. Unfortunately, the only way they can determine that initially is on paper. Just my 2 cents...
 
As I said before, all I can report on are my "theories" and what I have seen in my candidates that have secured interviews.

As stated in my previous post, try for a Check Airman spot "if it is possible." If not, look for a committee on your union, whether it be a technical spot or a hotel committee. If you are in a corporate position, and your position is Chief Pilot, then you need to be detailing things like proposals you have put together for acquisition of aircraft, new procedures you have implemented, etc. If you have perfect attendance, put it down.

I have not looked at the application since it first came out, so I am not sure how much space there is for information like that. But if there is room, put down any significant contributions you have made to make your company or operation better.

When I write resumes for my pilot clients, the main thing I ask about is what they have done in addition to flying. I tell them exactly what someone else said on here, "What makes you different and standout from everyone else?"

On another note, Walden said "If everyone has a similar background it makes it tough to compare all the available applicants fairly." Perhaps I am not reading that right, but I am going to reply to this from what I perceive is being said.

There is info out there that I believe is incorrect. You are not in competition with other applicants; you are in competition with yourself. When the information goes to the hiring board, they do not compare candidate X with candidate Y. They take the recommendations and observations from everyone that participated in your interview and make a decision.

Now, the one thing I will say is if SWA only had 10 positions to fill, then there would be some comparison. But we all know that is not the case right now.

If SWA had 10 interviews in one day, and all 10 people were outstanding, they would take all of them. The reason behind this is simple; the faster they get people hired and into the pool, the more focus they can put on other matters.

Understand that recruitment is a non-revenue generating position. Management at any airline would like nothing more than to cut the costs of interviewing and hiring. They have to pay a Captain (or two) to step off the line, use reserves that take additional pilots out of the operation, and cause stress on the airline if there are irregular ops, pay someone to do the searches for candidates, call them and set up interviews; the list of costs goes on.

It would be in their best interest to hire as many candidates as possible to meet their hiring quota. It costs them nothing once you are in the pool.

Anyway, these are just the rantings of a very tired resume writer late at night! :) I may not be right on all accounts, but as I said before, I am just trying to figure out the magic formula like everyone else! :confused:

Kathy
 
"The Poolie Formerly Known As CaptainBrazilia"

Glenn, I think it is. Congrats. Care to share your stats, impressions of the interview?
Thanks.
 
6000+ TT
3000+ PIC (mostly turbo-jet)
3000+ Turbine
Flt. Instructor, A&P, Charter & Airline experience
737 Type
4 Yr. degree

There is no right answer to this question. I probably had the best interview of my career when I interviewd with SWA last June. I felt well prepared but not cocky in any way. My paperwork was in perfect order, I looked great, I answered all the questions with ease, confidence and a smile on my face. I was outgoing and joked around a little with the PD staff. I told them that I really wanted the job. I knew what most of the pitfalls might be and I feel I avoided them all and scored the knockout punch. SWA did not see it that way though, or at least did not feel that I was good enough this time through, or they thought I was good enough but I did not fit into whatever cross section of pilots they were picking that month. I do know for a fact that most of the military pilots from my group were hired and none of us civ'ys made it. I have nothing against military pilots (having wanted to be one myself but missing the oppoutunity) and I'm glad for the well deserved opportunities they get in civilian aviation, but it sure sucks being the odd man out, especially when you know that you have worked as hard or even harder (and probably spent alot more of your own money on your career) to be at that interview. A couple months after I received the infamous dear John letter one of the captains who interviewd me requested a jumpseat on one of my flights and I turned his sorry a!! down . . . . just kidding. He was one of the coolest cats I had met at the interview and I thought that my time with him was the best part of the day. He was quite surprised that I had not been accepted and expressed to me that he felt that the DB's were rejecting alot of good aplicants. I asked him specifically about becoming a check-airman/ioe captain and he said it would not make much if any difference in SWA consideration of me for a job. I remain optimistic though about my second time around hopefully sometime later this year as I continue to improve my quals. (another type, more pic and hopefully a check airman position just for the heck of it). It will take me that long to be mentally ready anyway just to process through the dissapointment and frustration of losing out on the best job in the industry the first time through. Anyway, good luck to this poster on your interview. I'm sure you'll do well, just relax and be yourself and remember all your good stories. Maybe we'll see each other on line one day.
 
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Dear resume writer,

I think you may be a little wrong about SWA hiring quickly for all their needs based on the fact that it cost them nothing to keep you in the pool. I think it does cost them some undetermined amount to keep current FBI/DMV/background checks on poolies. I don't think these checks last forever so they have to be re-done every 6 months or so, a cost that SWA I 'm sure does not want to duplicate if not absolutely necessary. Thus, they can't hire averyone they think is good all at once or else people would be sitting in the pool for too long.
 
Krusty

You are exactly right....the job of CA is one that is the backbone of any organization......some would argue (I being one of those) that the "good CAs" take on some aspects of a check airman, i.e. mentoring of FOs, maintaining & enforcing the standards set down by management, "coaching" new FOs on what is expected & doing all of these things without appearing to be doing it:) ...takes quite the talented person.

All the while these "leadership" skills are being exhibited you're flying to minimums, dealing with dispatch, handling customers with kid gloves or showing decisive leadership. What comes out in the interview are these stories or others that are told. If your CA stories illustrate those values that SWA also similarly values then at least you're in the ballpark...there are no guarantees obviously!

There are many folks who are great CAs & some "CA only have been hired at SWA, others that aren't....trying to analyze the reasons why someone isn't hired is a fool's game & while Kathy & my attempt at providing some perspective to what "may" be one characteristic to being a "good candidate", I've probably given the wrong impression that it is more important than it is.

Do I think it helps to have additional experience? Yes....is it critical to getting hired at SWA? Define critical....everything is critical when one is looking at the total package....rarely is one single thing the deciding factor...we could have this same discussion about (1) no college degree, 2 or 4 yr degree, (2) no 121 stink on you or some/alot, (3) types of LORs...folks have had this discussion when we were interviewing folks (4) without 737 types & those with.

I believe one should try to stack the deck in as many ways as you can to "enhance" one's appeal to a potential employer.......maybe my military experiences had me think that way but in my case I was one of those guys who was two grades above where I should've been with credentials much less stellar than others....no I didn't know anyone special but hiring/promoting folks like me gave hope to all the average folks out there...someone had to be on the other end of the bell curve...that was me:) !!!!

Honestly, the method of deciding of who gets the hired call is a mystery to most of us & will certainly remain so....we loose many good folks, trust me, many friends have been turned down that would be a perfect fit but either the interview, LOI or something else kept them out....doesn't change who they are or that they wouldn't be a good fit......I'll try to use a poor analogy to explain how I see it.

Most of us when chasing (I did) our spouse may not have been successful the first time....we weren't their type......no explanation (my future wife gave me plenty though) often times & we have several options....write them off & press on to the next fish in the sea, come back the next time & do a better job of selling yourself & really showing them what you're like (still doesn't guarantee success....took me multiple attempts to convince her) or make some changes because you think it is worth it to impress your future betrothed....again nothing personal (yea, right) but regardless even if it doesn't work out you are probably better for the process & know more about yourself & what you are willing to do make yourself more desireable along the way....if it gets to be too much one can always walk away.....just because they turned you down doesn't make the process sinister, unfair, or biased or the other person a "bad person"......over analyzing (with poor analogies, my apology) only raises the blood pressure & makes one loose focus about what's important even after Southwest....family friends, personal self...allowing "it" (the entire process) to alter your view about yourself, your current position, the aviation industry, Southwest or others doesn't get one any closer to achieving your aviation goals IMHO.

There are folks on here who far more insight & knowledge than I do about the process....thanks to them for their posts but sometimes (I've been guilty of it also) trying to answer too many questions only starts one down a road that simply one shouldn't be on....NONE OF US CAN DO MUCH ABOUT IT.

Pick your path, method, process for preparing....read here & other places & use your best judgement.....when in flying do we have a 100% solution....doesn't mean we stop trying I know & that a fluke in all pilots personalities ;) ...in this case no one on here has the definitive answer & there isn't one (thank goodness). Sorry for the long response but the frustration of not getting called when others are that appear to have less quals than oneself or after getting turned down after going through this process is indeed a challenge to keep one's psyche intact.

Again Krusty, thanks for your kind words....my words are usually priceless alright, worth about $.01 which is pretty "price - less"....hang in there don't give up!!!!
cheers,
 
Farscape said:
Dear resume writer,

I think you may be a little wrong about SWA hiring quickly for all their needs based on the fact that it cost them nothing to keep you in the pool. I think it does cost them some undetermined amount to keep current FBI/DMV/background checks on poolies. I don't think these checks last forever so they have to be re-done every 6 months or so, a cost that SWA I 'm sure does not want to duplicate if not absolutely necessary. Thus, they can't hire averyone they think is good all at once or else people would be sitting in the pool for too long.

Farscape,

Not really sure about that logic, as there were people that sat in the pool for two years. While I have no "specific" knowledge at this time for how long an FBI/DMV/Background check is valid for, I would suspect that "if" they have to do another one on a candidate, they would do it just prior to a person attending class to see if they are still "good to go." I would believe that the cost for that is minimal in relation to the expense that is generated through constant interviewing of candidates.

As I said before, I might be wrong. It would be interesting to know the answer to that question. Let me see if I can find a definitive answer to that question through a phone call.

Kathy
 
Farscape:


I feel your pain, bro! But do not lose the faith! You interviewed at probably the most competitive time in the company's history. I personally know several guys who did not make the cut on their first try, but came back and were hired the second time around (a couple within the last few months)....it's VERY common.

Best of luck to you.
 
There are costs to having people in the pool. The main concern is not money.

I have been told several times from the PD that they realise the chaos on peoples lives when they sit in the pool "to long." The uncertainty can be terrible. SWA will do everything in its power to:

1: interview and hire the best folks we can
2: have enough people "on deck" for any contingency
3: do this with as little "pool" time as possible

You always lose folks if the wait is too long. We really want to hire the folks we interview, so we certainly don't want to lose any after they have been selected.
 
Any unofficial age at which one becomes more of a long shot for getting the nod? Hitting 40 this year, thinking about trying to jump ship. I know they hire lots of mil retirees over 40, just not sure if they have a separate view of crusty civ guys.
 
Farscape,

Keep the faith. Thought I did OK the first time around but did not get the call. Got it the second time though. Don't give up if it is what you want. Enjoy the 170.
 

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