Is Pro Standards really enough in cases like this?

[Inconceivable]

Had a friend call today asking about how best to follow-up on a situation.

The friend went to fly a trip last night, last flight out of the hub, and discovered that the AML was not completely filled out, the first flight of the day inspections had not been signed off, the security check had not been completed, the flight deck was in a configuration that no checklist would lead to (tubes on, nav lights off), and...the pin was still in the ADG.

Did I mention that the same crew flew the aircraft for four legs prior to my friend getting it? That's right, flew four legs with the ADG pinned.

New hire captain, new hire first officer, Pinnacle Airlines.



Be careful out there, folks.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Good thing they didn't try to 4XX it.

 

[cwebster2]

give pro stands a shot, they'll let you know if the issue is beyond their scope and to bring it to a CP.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Have you considered MX was on the jet after the "newbie crew" and before "your freind?"

Regardless, have your "freind" call the Newbie Capt. and pass on the information...non judgemental style and he can fill out an ASAP.

After all, wouldn't you want someone to do that to you, I mean "your friend" if they thought "your friend" were capabale of this??

(some sarcasm in there...but you get the idea :beer: )

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I was thinking MX as well. I've seen them take an aircraft that is "set up" only to return it in disarray as far as switches, etc.

Oh, by the way for you MX peeps out there. Very funny about turning the marker beacon switch up loud.

 

[Inconceivable]

Rez,

I haven't flow the CRJ in almost seven years, so I am afraid it is a "friend." They had to wait on the aircraft to arrive; there was no MX.

ProStans is nice, but when both members of the crew negligently fail to check and count pins four flights in a row?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

You're acting like this is a big surprise. Too many hacks setting you up for a downfall in the regional world. Try a major airline.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

I haven't flow the CRJ in almost seven years, so I am afraid it is a "friend." They had to wait on the aircraft to arrive; there was no MX.

ProStans is nice, but when both members of the crew negligently fail to check and count pins four flights in a row?

So what are you suggesting? Throw managment a bone? Once you go down that path....

We all make mistakes... even you and me. How we handle them defines who we are. The correct course of action is to make your fellow professionals aware of the issue and let them self correct. One learns the most via self correction, not discipline. With ASAP it is a no brainer.

Even if they were not at fault.. would they, or even you for that matter, want to explain yourself to Flight Standards? At least give them the professional courtesy of a "heads up". Wouldn't you want the same?

If they feel there is no issue and you still feel it is that much of a safety or professional issue, then tell them, "Fill out an ASAP, regardless, I will notify PSC or Flight stands in 36 hours.."

This isn't a Pinnacle issue... it is a professional issue amongts air line pilots... meaning... any airline anywhere...

Professionals are a self policing group....

 

[PCL_128]

Agreed. Go to Pro Stands. Going to management isn't even an option.

 

[JPAustin]

So what are you suggesting? Throw managment a bone? Once you go down that path....

We all make mistakes... even you and me. How we handle them defines who we are. The correct course of action is to make your fellow professionals aware of the issue and let them self correct. One learns the most via self correction, not discipline. With ASAP it is a no brainer.

Even if they were not at fault.. would they, or even you for that matter, want to explain yourself to Flight Standards? At least give them the professional courtesy of a "heads up". Wouldn't you want the same?

If they feel there is no issue and you still feel it is that much of a safety or professional issue, then tell them, "Fill out an ASAP, regardless, I will notify PSC or Flight stands in 36 hours.."

This isn't a Pinnacle issue... it is a professional issue amongts air line pilots... meaning... any airline anywhere...

Professionals are a self policing group....

I think this is the best advice. ASAP will "protect" them, and ProStands will "protect" them. So long as they didn't do it out of pure and complete knowing disregard of the rules and regs, they can plea the "we are new and screwed it up" or "we were tired and screwed it up" etc.. They will be penalized, that is a foregone conclusion, but the proper course of action will help their case.

But you are right. Some how, some way, it is going to get figured out. Best to let the defendants voluntarily plead guilty and take the proper channels rather than try to get away with it and get strung up on charges whey they try to hide it but eventually get caught (and they will).

And for the person or crew who is first to "catch" the crime, always best to let them know first before you go down your own path. You never know when there might be legit reasons for their mistakes that no one would have ever thought of. Kind of like the "you come down for the van and the FO smells of alcohol and looks tired..." Even the best of us makes a mistake and at the time might look like a complete idiot, but you don't want to risk a person's career without giving them a chance through proper channels.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And for the person or crew who is first to "catch" the crime, always best to let them know first before you go down your own path. You never know when there might be legit reasons for their mistakes that no one would have ever thought of. Kind of like the "you come down for the van and the FO smells of alcohol and looks tired..." Even the best of us makes a mistake and at the time might look like a complete idiot, but you don't want to risk a person's career without giving them a chance through proper channels.

And until you know the their side of the story you don't know the whole story. So before the people who can discipline or fire get involved, find out the WHOLE truth. Of course you'd want that opportunity if the spotlight were turned on you.

When you think about it, that is a basic course action in our gov't (not our culture). Innocent until proven guilty, everyone gets to tell thier side of the story and finally due process.

The profession gets weakened when we start throwing each other under the bus. If I can't trust the Crew that is taking the jet after me, if I can't trust my FO.. then the safety of the public is compromised because now we are all looking out for ourselves. Defenses are up and weapons drawn. Not good.

 

[Axel]

Whether or not you take it to The Man instead of the brothers depends on whether either or both of them are senior to you.

 

[JumpersAway]

I'd agree with Rez- talk to your "friend" first, and then go to prostands....STAY AWAY FROM MGT!

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Had a friend call today asking about how best to follow-up on a situation.

The friend went to fly a trip last night, last flight out of the hub, and discovered that the AML was not completely filled out, the first flight of the day inspections had not been signed off, the security check had not been completed, the flight deck was in a configuration that no checklist would lead to (tubes on, nav lights off), and...the pin was still in the ADG.

Did I mention that the same crew flew the aircraft for four legs prior to my friend getting it? That's right, flew four legs with the ADG pinned.

New hire captain, new hire first officer, Pinnacle Airlines.



Be careful out there, folks.

1. Call dispatch and get the times for the AML if you really care. Leave the unsigned copy in the captains v-file.
2. Complete the first flight of the day items on your leg and initial it.
3. How do you know if the security check had not been completed? (Don't you leave the signed copy at the station in the morning?)
4. How do you know the ADG has been pinned for 4 legs? I have NEVER had an overnight station pin the ADG. I found the gear pins left in once in four years.
5. Unless the engines were left running, return the switches to their normal position.

It doesn't matter if the crew were both "newbies", you shouldn't be a whiney little b1tch and report someone to prostands for some stupid sh1t.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Call scheduling and ask them to call the 'newbie CA' and leave a message w/ your number and to call you. Done. Take care of your own.

This is by far one of the stupidest threads I've seen here in weeks.

John... why.... why would you say such a thing.... with so many pilots out there with SJS, ready to take over the world, with thier "I got mine, gonna be a Cap'n soon" attitude... many guys don't know how to handle these types of situations.... so let 'em learn...

 

[John Pennekamp]

It doesn't matter if the crew were both "newbies", you shouldn't be a whiney little b1tch and report someone to prostands for some stupid sh1t.

'Bout time someone said it. There are so many bitches in this industry nowadays. You don't fricking turn someone in because in your humble opinion, they screwed up. You deal with the problem, and mention it to the captain next time you see him. In other words you handle it. Like a man. Man up, junior.

This is by far one of the stupidest threads I've seen here in weeks.

 

[Flyprdu]

Naaaarrrc!!

 

[SpoilerFault]

I'm in MX but the same priniciples apply....it's much better to handle the situation by talking to the crew that had the a/c previously rather than jumping to conclusions and making a huge pain in the ass for all parties involved. Anyone is subject to making a mistake and why go to pro-standards if you don't have all the facts? If it were indeed some sort of "rookie mistake" on the part of that crew, they'll likely learn a lesson and appreciate the fact that a fellow pilot came to them with the problem/questions man to man....my .02

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nothing woring with calling Pro Stands or PSC... the first question they will probably ask is ... "Did you try and resolve this on your own?"

 

[skyslug]

Rez is correct...that is the first question Pro Stan's asks. Plus (with my previous carrier) contacting Pro Stan's keeps it out of the CP's hands and out of your file; there's no record of it and you can't be disciplined for it if it's something Pro Stan's decides to get involved with.

But first you must discuss this with the previous captain (do NOT accuse him of anything).

by contacting Pro Stan's you are not turning anyone in, in fact you have the opportunity to save that person from the CP's office and possible discipline!

 

[viper548]

Talk to the captain first.

 

[JPAustin]

'Bout time someone said it. There are so many bitches in this industry nowadays. You don't fricking turn someone in because in your humble opinion, they screwed up. You deal with the problem, and mention it to the captain next time you see him. In other words you handle it. Like a man. Man up, junior.

This is by far one of the stupidest threads I've seen here in weeks.

I'm not familiar with Pinnacle ops much less the CRJ, but it sounds like this infraction was pretty severe at worst, unprofessional at best. It isn't a manner of narcing (sp?), it is a matter of principle. If some guy gives me a plane that he/she flew four legs on with such gross errors, that is a safety concern and I am now obliged to bring it up. I don't want to ruin the person's career (assuming they aren't an habitual idiot or jerk), so my line of attack is contact the guy first, express my dislike of his/her practices and how the safety oversight can affect ME or any other crew, tell him/her I will follow up on my own in some given amount of time, and hope he/she does the right thing and admits the failure. But I will have an eye out for that matter coming up in the ASAP reports, if it doesn't come up on its own by another means (crew gets caught).

Regardless, that crew is going to get caught somehow, it always happens. This isn't a matter of calling the guy on his cell to come back to the plane because he forgot to sign a logpage. This matter sounds far worse than that.

 

[JPAustin]

Oh yes, and WHEN they get caught (if they do nothing), I would get in trouble as well, since I would be the crew who witnessed the negligence but did nothing about it. That is known as guilt by association.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I'm not familiar with Pinnacle ops much less the CRJ, but it sounds like this infraction was pretty severe at worst, unprofessional at best. It isn't a manner of narcing (sp?), it is a matter of principle. If some guy gives me a plane that he/she flew four legs on with such gross errors, that is a safety concern and I am now obliged to bring it up. I don't want to ruin the person's career (assuming they aren't an habitual idiot or jerk), so my line of attack is contact the guy first, express my dislike of his/her practices and how the safety oversight can affect ME or any other crew, tell him/her I will follow up on my own in some given amount of time, and hope he/she does the right thing and admits the failure. But I will have an eye out for that matter coming up in the ASAP reports, if it doesn't come up on its own by another means (crew gets caught).

Regardless, that crew is going to get caught somehow, it always happens. This isn't a matter of calling the guy on his cell to come back to the plane because he forgot to sign a logpage. This matter sounds far worse than that.

No, wrong approach. If you lectured me like that I'd ask you who you think you are then meet you in the parking lot. You'll follow up? Who the F do you think you are?!!!

Your best bet is to simply describe the problem to the captain, as you witnessed it. Then if the problem recurs, you go to Pro Stans.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Oh yes, and WHEN they get caught (if they do nothing), I would get in trouble as well, since I would be the crew who witnessed the negligence but did nothing about it. That is known as guilt by association.

You'll get in trouble? How?

Cite the reg that punishes you for not narking your buddy out (other than drugs/alcohol).

Don't be a tool. "Guilty by association"? You watch too many crime shows, Danno.

 

[regionaltard]

Agreed. Go to Pro Stands. Going to management isn't even an option.

It would be a real shame if FOs started writing up these elderly Captains for every little mistake they make. A real shame....

"Friends don't let friends fly at the first airline that I didn't have to pay to work at."