Is Nevets in the minority?

[JoeMerchant]

Here are some quotes from the "other" message board...What say you Nevets?

Originally Posted by blastoff
I think you are too easy to discount the fact that most XJT pilots are ready to move on from the broken promises of the once great XJT. ASA is a good company and you seem to like your CEO, so most guys are keeping it in perspective. This deal will go through and I think most will be happy with it no matter what the list looks like.

I know you like to keep emphasizing that you're doing the buying. That's fine, but has no bearing on SLI.

Agreed. Most XJT pilots are glad this thing is going through. This place isn't half of what it used to be. There's no reason this has to turn into a pis$ing match.

 

[punkpilot48]

Personally I do think its time that XJT goes through a change the current managment team has proven they can not make a profit and I dont trust their plan of, "maybe if we just wait around and do nothing but punish the labor we will make money again.

 

[PapaSiera]

Here are some quotes from the "other" message board...What say you Nevets?


[/I]

I guess where I and a few XJT guys have a problem with you is that you are so willing to cave and not fight for a fair wage or QOL. The way you guys talk about "Jerry" is as if you are giddy that he seeks concessions. You make yourselves sound like battered woman when you say "you better watch out, Jerry won't like that." Jesus, you play right into his hands. Then you say that we have to be competitive. Well who decides what is competitive? Why is it that you have to fly a Boeing or an Airbus to have descent pay and QOL. SKW makes a ton of money. It's time that they share it with there pilots.

 

[punkpilot48]

then you say that we have to be competitive. Well who decides what is competitive? Why is it that you have to fly a boeing or an airbus to have descent pay and qol. Skw makes a ton of money. It's time that they share it with there pilots.

+1....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I guess where I and a few XJT guys have a problem with you is that you are so willing to cave and not fight for a fair wage or QOL. Thre way you guys talk about "Jerry" is as if you are giddy that he seeks concessions. You make yourselves sound like battered woman when you say "you better watch out, Jerry won't like that." Jesus, you play right into his hands. Then you say that we have to be competitive. Well who decides what is competitive? Why is it that you have to fly a Boeing or an Airbus to have descent pay and QOL. SKW makes a ton if money. It's time that they share it with there pilots.

1. I believe I make a "fair wage" and I have a great QOL.

2. ASA's pay and QOL is far above most regionals.

3. Skywest's pay and QOL is far above most regionals.

4. You took concessions without Jerry owning you...You are subject to the whipsaw with or without Jerry...Thank ALPA and the mainline pilots inability to deal with scope for that.

5. The market decides...If you don't like the market, then you need to work towards reform within your union....Your union has signed many agreements way below what ASA and Skywest make...Just look at Mesa and TSA.

6. I make more and have a better QOL than many flying Boeings and Airbuses.

 

[PapaSiera]

1. I believe I make a "fair wage" and I have a great QOL.

5. I make more and have a better QOL than many flying Boeings and Airbuses.

That's great for you, but 90% of us don't. Don't forget that people without your seniority have a much tougher life, and would be better off at a major.

 

[skootertrash]

1. I believe I make a "fair wage" and I have a great QOL.

2. ASA's pay and QOL is far above most regionals.

3. Skywest's pay and QOL is far above most regionals.

4. You took concessions without Jerry owning you...You are subject to the whipsaw with or without Jerry...Thank ALPA and the mainline pilots inability to deal with scope for that.

5. The market decides...If you don't like the market, then you need to work towards reform within your union....Your union has signed many agreements way below what ASA and Skywest make...Just look at Mesa and TSA.

6. I make more and have a better QOL than many flying Boeings and Airbuses.

2 and 3, no you don't. You just think you do because you make almost 100K a year and have 15 days off a month. Air Wiskey, XJT and Comair all have it better than you. Skywest only has ANYTHING because it was given to them because of the work Comair, Wiskey and XJT have done.

Face it John, you've been at ASA since 1994. You didnt move on, and thats fine. You're almost in the top 10%....yippy. You have no idea what it's like at the other regionals because you don't work there. I bet my left nut if you worked at XJT for 6 months you'd never go back.

 

[crj567]

That's great for you, but 90% of us don't. Don't forget that people without your seniority have a much tougher life, and would be better off at a major.

Just ignore Joe. He is a real toolbag. Those who have been around here long enough to see what he has been involved with over the years know what a piece of work he is. It isn't about seniority with this guy, it is all about tooting his own horn.

-Every company has its own version of Gen Lee. The guy is just like the original Genital we all know and love.

 

[maxcackel]

Yes please put Joe on your ignore list, he is not Representative of ASA.

 

[buscap]

Yes please put Joe on your ignore list, he is not Representative of ASA.

Throwing up a little bit in my mouth is becoming habit on these threads.

I certainly hope our respective MECs are not spouting the ridiculous poop which has recently defiled the hallowed FI wall of wisdom.

If so, we are all doomed doomed doomed.

Doomed, I tell you!!

Doomed!!

Who took concessions?

Who has a better contract?

Who wears panties?

Who is buying who?

Who loves Jerry the least?

M gosh!! The answers to these questions will surely save us all!!

 

[79%N1]

2 and 3, no you don't. You just think you do because you make almost 100K a year and have 15 days off a month. Air Wiskey, XJT and Comair all have it better than you. Skywest only has ANYTHING because it was given to them because of the work Comair, Wiskey and XJT have done.

Ok.....Just explain to me where Whiskey and Comair have it "better" than ASA? In pay rates alone, ASA compares quite favorably.

ASA FO Wisc FO Comair FO
1 - 23 25 24
2 - 35 36 34
3 - 37 38 35
4 - 38 39 37
5 - 41 40 38
6 - 42 41 39


ASA CA Wisc CA Comair CA
5 - 66 67 63
6 - 68 69 65
7 - 70 71 67
8 - 72 73 68
9 - 74 75 71
10- 77 77 73
15- 89 89 85
18- 96 95 93

Per Diem ASA 1.65 Wisc 1.60 Comair 1.55
401K ASA 75% of first 6%, yr 10 75% of 8%
Wisc 5% and 3% Defined contr.
Comair 40% of 5%. Year 10 60% of 5%
Duty Rig ASA 2:1 up to 12 hrs, 1:1 12 hrs+ 4 hour min day
Wisc 2:1 4 hour min day
Comair None
I'm sure max days off is similar, as are reserve rules, trip swaps, etc.

So, just where is it that ASA lacks so far behind these two? I've also checked Republic, Pinnacle, Mesaba and Eagle and I can tell you with all certainty that ASA compares extremely well with all of them. We didn't even get into the 700/900 issues where an ASA pilot now out earns an expressjet pilot.

Do all 1600 of us want our combined company to adopt the best of XJT's contract on pay, work rules and retirement? 100% absolutely!!! We are already very similar. ASA makes up soft-pay in rigs that XJT has in slightly higher pay. But, why do some of you guys act like we want to fight you so we can earn less? Pilots here do understand, maybe better than you guys, that Delta has a huge portfolio to keep competition high. In fact, in ASA's CPA with Delta there is a clause that we must be the second lowest cost carrier or Delta can terminate our contract. This hurt even more when Pinnacle, Compass and Mesaba became DCI carriers, when you factor Freedumb was in the mix. Now, I assure you that this management has trimmed costs everywhere possible to make us leaner and more cost efficient. Part of this is running a little leaner on staffing, while it is a pain, if it helps us keep our business so be it. Trying to be the highest paid, without PBS, with the best retirement, rigs, vacation, per diem, etc can possibly cost us flying contracts in the future. This is a fact! Not fear tactics or conjecture. We have to find the balance. I think that is what some of our guys have been saying.

You lose credibility, however, when you refute someone saying "we are above most" by throwing out "no you aren't", Comair and Whisky are higher than you", when clearly they are not. In fact, dollar for dollar, rule for rule over the whole contract I will say that ASA is indeed above or equal to most every other regional.

Looking forward to bringing your pilots and you supremely superior contract over to ASA. It will benefit us all, as long as it doesn't ultimately cost us our business. See.....Atlantic Coast Airlines for reference, and to a lesser extent, your own airlines lack of recent profitability - which may cost you going forward alone.

 

[Metro752]

ASA has a much much newer contract, in fairness. Until not long ago ASA & Pinnacle were slugging it out for the #2 spot just above Mesa.

 

[JumpersAway]

I think the truth of the matter is that we need to work togeather on this thing. Trying to stop this merger is akin to standing in front of a steam roller and throwing up one's hand. It's inevitable, and pretty much unstoppable.........unless you're willing to scuttle the entire airline. Even this wouldn't be effective- Skywest would simply transfer airframes without the pilots. Sure, it would be costly, difficult, and rediculous to do so, but Inc. isn't going to let the ship sink, and won't go from "first to worst" in a cash perspective.

In short, RELAX! Let the MEC's, from both companies, work togeather and get this done in a fair and civil manner. We're allies here, not butting heads. I'd have to argue that we both have the same picture in the end- a respectably paying job, with as much security as we can obtain. We're going to need both pilot groups to do this.

 

[BoilerUP]

Anybody else find it amusing AWAC's contract is concessionary and went into effect in October 2003 yet is STILL held up as a high-water mark in the regional industry?

 

[sweptback]

Anybody else find it amusing AWAC's contract is concessionary and went into effect in October 2003 yet is STILL held up as a high-water mark in the regional industry?

Not at all.

In 2003 there probably were a third as many RJs as now, and probably a tenth as many RJs over 50 seats.

There was much less competition between regional airlines in the late 90s and early 2000s, and it was easier to get feed contracts favorable to the regional partner.

Now with everybody underbidding each other to stay employed, as well as stupid ideas like "let's get the airplanes now and work on the payrates later" (I'm looking at you RAH and SKW), it's going to be damn near impossible to ever move the bar forward in regional contracts.

 

[say again]

That's great for you, but 90% of us don't. Don't forget that people without your seniority have a much tougher life, and would be better off at a major.

Exactly. It's the selfish mentality that causes/d some of the contract issues we have today. Don't get me wrong, outside influence has caused them as well, but pilots are there own worst enemy.

 

[JumpersAway]

Not at all.

In 2003 there probably were a third as many RJs as now, and probably a tenth as many RJs over 50 seats.

There was much less competition between regional airlines in the late 90s and early 2000s, and it was easier to get feed contracts favorable to the regional partner.

Now with everybody underbidding each other to stay employed, as well as stupid ideas like "let's get the airplanes now and work on the payrates later" (I'm looking at you RAH and SKW), it's going to be damn near impossible to ever move the bar forward in regional contracts.

It's impossible to "move the bar foward" in this environment. Even if you got every regional to systematically up the payrates, some clown would merely provided what the market place (mainline airlines) needed- by starting another regional from scratch to suit the need. The only way to keep the bar moving foward is to tie the regionals, lock, stock, and barrel, to their mainline partners. As much as Joe Merchant is disliked, the man understands this and has the entire picture. This is where "brand scope" comes in to play, and the exact reason that we need to work WITH our mainline partners to stop the low pay issues................

 

[crj567]

It's impossible to "move the bar foward" in this environment. Even if you got every regional to systematically up the payrates, some clown would merely provided what the market place (mainline airlines) needed- by starting another regional from scratch to suit the need. The only way to keep the bar moving foward is to tie the regionals, lock, stock, and barrel, to their mainline partners. As much as Joe Merchant is disliked, the man understands this and has the entire picture. This is where "brand scope" comes in to play, and the exact reason that we need to work WITH our mainline partners to stop the low pay issues................

I can see you don't know much about Joe's history.....

-Maybe you should ask Joe why he resigned from the union-without serving in his elected position.

(Hint: I know the answer, and I think it has a lot to do with why "brand scope" will never, ever happen here.)

 

[79%N1]

Just because JoeM did something in his past does not mean some of his obsevations on the plight of the Regional industry are not correct. He seems to understand the challenges and hurdles we face due to the "portfolio concept". Just because you don't like something he may have done does not make him entirely wrong. And until all DCI are attached to Delta in some way together (read brand scope) then it won't change or improve. American will always bring in a TSA. Continental will bring in a Colgan or CHQ. There is always Mesa lurking to undercut your company and drive down your bargaining power. How is he at all wrong about this?

 

[SpauldingSmails]

American will always bring in a TSA. Continental will bring in a Colgan or CHQ. There is always Mesa lurking to undercut your company and drive down your bargaining power. How is he at all wrong about this?

He's not wrong. Well, about the above anyway.

Its just that reality is an awfully big horse-pill for some people to swallow.