Is Nevets in the minority?

[crj567]

Just because JoeM did something in his past does not mean some of his obsevations on the plight of the Regional industry are not correct. He seems to understand the challenges and hurdles we face due to the "portfolio concept". Just because you don't like something he may have done does not make him entirely wrong. And until all DCI are attached to Delta in some way together (read brand scope) then it won't change or improve. American will always bring in a TSA. Continental will bring in a Colgan or CHQ. There is always Mesa lurking to undercut your company and drive down your bargaining power. How is he at all wrong about this?

Joe is playing nice right now... I think he is planning on another run at the union. Before you think you know the guy, you should really ask some people about his past. Anyone who has ever attempted to do what he and a few others did doesn't get my vote. Not now, not ever.

 

[BobbyBiplane]

time that they share it with there pilots.[/QUOTE]

SkyWest should only share with pilots who know the difference between Their and there.

Pilots this stupid do not deserve respect.

Bob

 

[JumpersAway]

[/U][/B]

I can see you don't know much about Joe's history.....

-Maybe you should ask Joe why he resigned from the union-without serving in his elected position.

(Hint: I know the answer, and I think it has a lot to do with why "brand scope" will never, ever happen here.)

I don't care about Joe's history- I care about Joe's point. Yes, I'm aware of the "controversy". Me personally, I'm more concerned with the "now", rather than the "then". He's got points, regardless of wheather you like the guy or not- it's just prudent logic to see the need to tie regionals to their mainline partners to raise the bar.

 

[ASABound]

Let me just remind everyone amongst this very important discussion. MESA SUCKS!!!

 

[Medeco]

Just because JoeM did something in his past does not mean some of his obsevations on the plight of the Regional industry are not correct. He seems to understand the challenges and hurdles we face due to the "portfolio concept". Just because you don't like something he may have done does not make him entirely wrong. And until all DCI are attached to Delta in some way together (read brand scope) then it won't change or improve. American will always bring in a TSA. Continental will bring in a Colgan or CHQ. There is always Mesa lurking to undercut your company and drive down your bargaining power. How is he at all wrong about this?

+1

If he is so wrong, prove it with facts.

BTW, how much bonus money did XJT payout to pilots in 2009 and 2010?

 

[ERfly]

+1

If he is so wrong, prove it with facts.

BTW, how much bonus money did XJT payout to pilots in 2009 and 2010?

We got a plastic model of the branded airplane in 2007. Squat in 2008, 2009 and thus far in 2010.

 

[johnpeace]

I guess where I and a few XJT guys have a problem with you is that you are so willing to cave and not fight for a fair wage or QOL.

I thought our 2007 contract was a HUGE step forward and that it brought us fair wages and QOL...and a company that can make money and grow.

I'd rather work for a growing, profitable company than the (shrinking) company that had 1-2% higher pay rates.

When have we been asked for concessions!?

 

[79%N1]

So my $2400 gross payout for profit sharing and performance makes up for the $2 whole dollars per hour an XJT Capt makes over me? Or makes up for the money XJT makes over me in vacation pay. Now, lets add in the soft pay like the 2:1 duty rigs (1:1 after 12 hours) and min day that adds hours to my credit every month, and ASA pilots may just be compensated as well as - or better than - XJT pilots.

 

[ASABound]

79% N1, dont sugar coat it dude our duty rig is scheduled only not actual, we are getting screwed as much as we exceed our "scheduled duty day" you are drinking the cool aid !!

 

[79%N1]

Ok, that's fine. But, why do I routinely block 80 hours or so and get paid 92-95, on average? There is soft pay in our contract that adds up each month.

 

[ASABound]

I agree man, but you would be getting paid 100 + if we had actual or scheduled duty-whichever is greater. definately 100 + if we had a trip rig.... Just saying. Not completely disagreeing, just getting all the facts out there

 

[Nevets]

I honestly don't know if I'm in the minority. From the couple of threads on the pipe, most of the people there agree with me. But that may just be the vocal minority.

1. I believe I make a "fair wage" and I have a great QOL.

2. ASA's pay and QOL is far above most regionals.

3. Skywest's pay and QOL is far above most regionals.

4. You took concessions without Jerry owning you...You are subject to the whipsaw with or without Jerry...Thank ALPA and the mainline pilots inability to deal with scope for that.

5. The market decides...If you don't like the market, then you need to work towards reform within your union....Your union has signed many agreements way below what ASA and Skywest make...Just look at Mesa and TSA.

6. I make more and have a better QOL than many flying Boeings and Airbuses.

1. Not everyone makes a fair wage or have a decent QOL. In general I would say that pilots are underpaid.

3. They can thank other union pilots for that.

4. We took concessions thanks to JA decimating us after they tried to buy us two years ago. No reason to add another layer of whipsaw. Its bad enough when mainline does it so no need to give the regional management the tool to hold it over our heads.

ASA makes up soft-pay in rigs that XJT has in slightly higher pay. But, why do some of you guys act like we want to fight you so we can earn less? Pilots here do understand, maybe better than you guys, that Delta has a huge portfolio to keep competition high. In fact, in ASA's CPA with Delta there is a clause that we must be the second lowest cost carrier or Delta can terminate our contract. This hurt even more when Pinnacle, Compass and Mesaba became DCI carriers, when you factor Freedumb was in the mix. Now, I assure you that this management has trimmed costs everywhere possible to make us leaner and more cost efficient. Part of this is running a little leaner on staffing, while it is a pain, if it helps us keep our business so be it. Trying to be the highest paid, without PBS, with the best retirement, rigs, vacation, per diem, etc can possibly cost us flying contracts in the future. This is a fact! Not fear tactics or conjecture. We have to find the balance. I think that is what some of our guys have been saying.

Which is why we should all want one list. If we were all SKW, there would be one less DCI carrier to compete with. As it is now, you compete with your own sister airline! Anyways, SKW will save $70 million just on synergy savings by only merging two operations. No reason why we can't have the highest pay, without PBS, with the best retirement, rigs, vacation, per diem, etc.

Looking forward to bringing your pilots and you supremely superior contract over to ASA. It will benefit us all, as long as it doesn't ultimately cost us our business. See.....Atlantic Coast Airlines for reference, and to a lesser extent, your own airlines lack of recent profitability - which may cost you going forward alone.

Personally, I rather take that risk than roll over on our scope.

It's impossible to "move the bar foward" in this environment. Even if you got every regional to systematically up the payrates, some clown would merely provided what the market place (mainline airlines) needed- by starting another regional from scratch to suit the need. The only way to keep the bar moving foward is to tie the regionals, lock, stock, and barrel, to their mainline partners. As much as Joe Merchant is disliked, the man understands this and has the entire picture. This is where "brand scope" comes in to play, and the exact reason that we need to work WITH our mainline partners to stop the low pay issues................

Actually, better than brand scope, one list for everyone flying the colors of the brand. Lets see if JM agrees with that or if he rather do what is best just for him?

When have we been asked for concessions!?

Yes, its called PBS.

So my $2400 gross payout for profit sharing and performance makes up for the $2 whole dollars per hour an XJT Capt makes over me? Or makes up for the money XJT makes over me in vacation pay. Now, lets add in the soft pay like the 2:1 duty rigs (1:1 after 12 hours) and min day that adds hours to my credit every month, and ASA pilots may just be compensated as well as - or better than - XJT pilots.

The way most of our pairings are built, especially lately, your rigs or min pay (which is only about 7 min more than ours) wouldn't make much of a difference. As for soft time, hour vacation rules take care of that.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nevets! What happened? You were saying so much more by not posting....

 

[Nevets]

Nevets! What happened? You were saying so much more by not posting....

Ahh, its this affliction I have.

Its funny how he only post a couple of quotes from other message boards and totally ignores the one board where most of the XJT pilots posts. I could post a couple dozen there that agree with me.

 

[Nevets]

Isn't it ironic that its mostly regional guys (especially JM) that give the mainline pilots for selling out scope but once you have a regional pilot group that is willing to fight for their scope, we have other regional pilots say things like, you should play nice, or cut your nose off to spite your face, or this is your lifeboat, or go ahead and fall on your sword, etc etc.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I honestly don't know if I'm in the minority. From the couple of threads on the pipe, most of the people there agree with me. But that may just be the vocal minority.

Here's my theory on the "vocal minority".....I was once part of it when ASA was really a hatefull place to work.

I have a 1/3rd, 1/3rd, 1/3rd theory that I apply to anything that is controversial. Politics or union issues, I think it holds pretty well. Polling data seems to back it up.

On any given big issue, there are about 1/3rd for, 1/3rd against, and 1/3rd apathetic that would rather watch the game or be out partying and probably aren't even paying attention to the issue at hand.

That percentage fluctuates a little each way depending on the age and number of "lifers" at a given carrier with regards to ALPA issues. In other words, there are probably a little more "shut the place down, this place sucks" folks at Mesa than at ASA. But it is a good place to start.

The second part I've learned is that the 1/3rd that belong in the "this place sucks, shut the place down" group are far more vocal when things get heated....They are the ones in the crew lounge that you hear, and they are the ones on the message boards.

The "vocal minority" is real...I know, I have been there.....

1. Not everyone makes a fair wage or have a decent QOL. In general I would say that pilots are underpaid.

What do you base that on? Are you basing it on pre-deregulation pilot contracts? Are you basing it on other professions?

3. They can thank other union pilots for that.

Actually, most of the downward pressure comes from union carriers....We have to compete with the Mesa and Trans States...which are union. Competition exists whether you are union or not....

4. We took concessions thanks to JA decimating us after they tried to buy us two years ago. No reason to add another layer of whipsaw. Its bad enough when mainline does it so no need to give the regional management the tool to hold it over our heads.

You blaiming JA for all your ills is like Pelosi and Obama blaiming Bush for their failures...

Which is why we should all want one list. If we were all SKW, there would be one less DCI carrier to compete with. As it is now, you compete with your own sister airline! Anyways, SKW will save $70 million just on synergy savings by only merging two operations. No reason why we can't have the highest pay, without PBS, with the best retirement, rigs, vacation, per diem, etc.

I want one list. I wanted on list at ASA/CMR/DAL...Your beloved ALPA didn't agree. Your beloved ALPA didn't want to push on list at Skywest/ASA because they were afraid they would lose the resulting representational vote.

Actually, better than brand scope, one list for everyone flying the colors of the brand. Lets see if JM agrees with that or if he rather do what is best just for him?

Your right, a single list is better than "brand scope"....ASA and CMR tried a single list back in 2000 with DAL, but ALPA rejected it....What is your position on that issue?

 

[JoeMerchant]

2. ASA's pay and QOL is far above most regionals.



5. The market decides...If you don't like the market, then you need to work towards reform within your union....Your union has signed many agreements way below what ASA and Skywest make...Just look at Mesa and TSA.

6. I make more and have a better QOL than many flying Boeings and Airbuses.

Nevets, you only responded to 1, 2, and 4...Care to comment on the other points?

 

[Nevets]

What do you base that on? Are you basing it on pre-deregulation pilot contracts? Are you basing it on other professions?

Just look at SWA pilots. They get paid fairly. Other than that, I base it on myself and what other regional pilots make not being commensurate with our responsibility, professionalism, education, etc.

Actually, most of the downward pressure comes from union carriers....We have to compete with the Mesa and Trans States...which are union. Competition exists whether you are union or not....

I didn't say that. Just saying that SKW in particular can thank union carriers such as XJT and ASA for not being the TSAs and Mesas.

You blaiming JA for all your ills is like Pelosi and Obama blaiming Bush for their failures...

Nope not blaming him for my ills. The fact of the matter is that JA made a deal with CAL for a cpa that took into consideration 16% pay cuts. Cal told our management either give them the same deal or get 12 months notice.

You are so single minded you don't even get the points I'm trying to make.

I want one list. I wanted on list at ASA/CMR/DAL...Your beloved ALPA didn't agree. Your beloved ALPA didn't want to push on list at Skywest/ASA because they were afraid they would lose the resulting representational vote.

Ok, so we agree we both want one list. They didn't want one list then, ok. We want one now.

Your right, a single list is better than "brand scope"....ASA and CMR tried a single list back in 2000 with DAL, but ALPA rejected it....What is your position on that issue?

I'm not here to talk about 10 years ago. I'm here to talk about one list, NOW. Why can't you stay on point?

2. ASA's pay and QOL is far above most regionals.



5. The market decides...If you don't like the market, then you need to work towards reform within your union....Your union has signed many agreements way below what ASA and Skywest make...Just look at Mesa and TSA.

6. I make more and have a better QOL than many flying Boeings and Airbuses.

Nevets, you only responded to 1, 2, and 4...Care to comment on the other points?

Can't speak to those points because I don't know enough about your pay and QOL, Mesa's, TSA's, or ASA's contract and how they came about.


So, we at least agree that one list is best.

 

[nimtz]

Sage advise I learned long ago: never listen to an opinionated Commuter lifer.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nevets... don't give a clown an audience.... he'll only annoy you more....