Is it True?

[bailey3083]

I have heard that new hire FO's are taking close to 100 hours in IOE and struggling to make it thru training. Any truth?

Bailey

 

[CA1900]

I have heard that new hire FO's are taking close to 100 hours in IOE and struggling to make it thru training. Any truth?

If you could be just slightly more specific -- maybe tell us what company you're talking about, for starters -- you might get better info. "Regionals" is a little broad.

 

[HarryParatestes]

If you could be just slightly more specific -- maybe tell us what company you're talking about, for starters -- you might get better info. "Regionals" is a little broad.

Little Broad? Talking about midgets, I love midgets.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

I saw the tallest midget the other day at the gas station.

 

[twighead]

At PDT we have an AQP program so we do cycles instead of hours. Anyway, you are required to complete at least 40 cycles, but I hear that a lot of guys are now going up to 80 cycles.

When I was hired most of the guys in my class finished in about 50 or less. I'm sure they would have fired us if we needed 80.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

The regional training wheels.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

At PDT we have an AQP program so we do cycles instead of hours. Anyway, you are required to complete at least 40 cycles, but I hear that a lot of guys are now going up to 80 cycles.

When I was hired most of the guys in my class finished in about 50 or less. I'm sure they would have fired us if we needed 80.

It's 40 cycles now? jeeez... It was 25 or out when I got hired.

 

[Avpilot]

I can't speak for what is 'average' at ExpressJet, but my experience as a new FO in 2004 was about 30 hours...a 4 day and 2 days of the next 4 day. As a CA, it was just 2 trips back to back, each a one day trip. 12.5 hours total. Again, I don't know if that is the average right now.

Tim

 

[bailey3083]

If you could be just slightly more specific -- maybe tell us what company you're talking about, for starters -- you might get better info. "Regionals" is a little broad.

The few guys from the regional side have told me they are seeing a huge increase in IOE times with the new hires. I am asking such a broad question to see if it is just their regionals or if this is all regionals.

Bailey

 

[Captain Morgan]

I hope it doesn't happen, but look forward to an increase in accidents and incidents...

CM

 

[OPECJet]

The few guys from the regional side have told me they are seeing a huge increase in IOE times with the new hires. I am asking such a broad question to see if it is just their regionals or if this is all regionals.

Bailey

I think it is that way at most of the crappier regionals. I ran across a guy here who was approaching 60 cycles on SOE.

I've heard of many new guys going 12 or more sim sessions, with the highest being over 20.

 

[daviator28621]

I think it is that way at most of the crappier regionals. I ran across a guy here who was approaching 60 cycles on SOE.

I've heard of many new guys going 12 or more sim sessions, with the highest being over 20.

At what point are they cutting them off and sending them home?

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

\

At what point are they cutting them off and sending them home?

PDT can't afford to send them home unless they are completely hopeless.

 

[Fred Rogers]

Colgan IOE does not really have a definate "stop date"

Usually the IOE student is transferred from the IOE Capt to the Line Capt at about 25 hrs. The Line Capt completes the IOE process which can take up to 6 months.



www.alpa.org/colgan

 

[bailey3083]

Oh how times have changed. When I started many moons ago if you busted anything you were given a second chance then sent home. Take more then 30 hours in IOE and you were sent home. Maybe Kit was correct and the tough times are here.

Bailey

 

[acaTerry]

Geez Steve, it took you about 1,250 at ACA didn't it? I was skeered flying with you.

 

[belchfire]

I'm surprised they can find anyone that will stick around for that long! My gosh, what with the crappy pay and everything I'm surprised everyone just hasn't packed it in and gone to law school or something. Doesn't anyone get it? No retirement, whimpy unions caving to management that takes their golden parachutes home when things get bad...

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Conspiracy Theory

I think these FOs at ASA are smarter than we all give them credit for. Take up to 100 hours for IOE (2 months), then after that, have scheduling build you a line for the next 2 months while you work on your first 100 hours. Then by the time this is over, you have about 4 months seniority of line flying, and you'll be a line holder by the time you bid with the rest of the pilots....thus, you've never been on reserve.

 

[Fred Rogers]

I'm surprised they can find anyone that will stick around for that long! My gosh, what with the crappy pay and everything I'm surprised everyone just hasn't packed it in and gone to law school or something. Doesn't anyone get it? No retirement, whimpy unions caving to management that takes their golden parachutes home when things get bad...

You know, I am starting to wonder. I think the corner is about to be turned though. Once they can't find people to fly the planes won't they have to make it more attractive to work there?

 

[SBD-2U3]

I hope it doesn't happen, but look forward to an increase in accidents and incidents...

CM

Was this some kind of qualifier to an already jacked up statement....Seriously dude WTF Over?!.

 

[jetracer5]

Well I just finished IOE at ASA and all it took me was a 4 day and a 2day trip. About 33hrs in the airplane. ASA is still hiring some sharp pilots. In my class we had 4 ex 121 guys and one KC-10 pilot from the air force. All finished IOE with no problem. Now we did have some 250hr wonder pilots that were interns. I havent heard anything about them yet?

 

[Goose Egg]

Now we did have some 250hr wonder pilots that were interns. I havent heard anything about them yet?

Wow. The term used to be "1000 hour wonders," which I guess is the category that I fall in. Oh well, I know I won't be 100 hours on IOE.

-Goose

 

[wickedpilot]

Colgan IOE does not really have a definate "stop date"

Usually the IOE student is transferred from the IOE Capt to the Line Capt at about 25 hrs. The Line Capt completes the IOE process which can take up to 6 months.



www.alpa.org/colgan

You mean your not suppose to be flying with the same captain each trip. I've been at my company almost 2 years and fly with the same guy. I thought the captain just really liked me.

 

[Brasilia Flyer]

Not at SkyWest. . . You get 50 hours. At 50 hours you either pass a line check, or you're fired.

 

[jetpig32]

Line Checkairman are geeting rich, the line captains are getting violations. (or close calls) With lowered minimums at the commuter level, lenghty IOE will become normal. I have had F.O.'s who never shot IAP's in IFR conditions (1000/3 or <). Many come from factory schools in the the desert. IOE once was to give new hires line experience and an initial grasp of the AC and its capabilities. It now includes multi engine and instrument proficiency. Cheers to those who do sim evals prior to hiring.

 

["TheBigPicture"]

At least the Check Airmen are making bank....JetPig you beat me to it!!

 

[jetracer5]

I just talked to a line check captain here at ASA and the average IOE for a new hire is about 50hrs

 

[Sawmill]

Times are changing people. It sort of makes you wonder what people will be talking about on FI in a couple of years. Probably how much ALPA sucks, how much (Insert airline here) sucks, and spikey hair FO's (or CAs now).

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I just talked to a line check captain here at ASA and the average IOE for a new hire is about 50hrs

That is incorrect. The average ASA new hire for June (the last month that we have complete data) took somewhere around 30 hours. (The minimum is 25 hours and 15 cycles.) I don't remember the exact number, and it may be as high as 31, but it was certainly not 50. I can find out the exact number though, if you'd like it.

There has been a general upswing in the time required over the past few months. In May the average was something like 31.7, and in June it had dropped a couple of hours to 30.

Yes, there has been a general trend of requiring more training, but it is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Much of the upswing could be explained by pilots having to wait a week or more from their proficiency check to their IOE. New hire skils deteriorate rapidly, and it may take some extra time to "relearn" what they forgot in the week or two off.

 

[N60OSU]

Yes, there has been a general trend of requiring more training, but it is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Much of the upswing could be explained by pilots having to wait a week or more from their proficiency check to their IOE. New hire skils deteriorate rapidly, and it may take some extra time to "relearn" what they forgot in the week or two off.

Good point. I won't speak for all airlines but I suspect that the glut of hiring is putting pressure on IOE schedules. There are only so many CAs and hours that they can do IOE. I took my checkride 5/19 and finished IOE 6/23. One 4 day followed by a 2 day; 35 days to complete 6 days of IOE with no less than 6 days off between flying events. Each time I got in the airplane I felt a little behind for the first leg or so and I came in with close to two years of 135 experience. Heck, in my previous job I felt a little off when I came off of a long weekend or vacation, and that was with 1000+ hrs in the airplane. Recency is everything, especially in a new A/C and operating environment. Frankly I think that 50 hrs is pretty good for some of the lower time guys.

We're still waiting for the accident record to reflect the reduced experience level of regional FOs. I'm sure that the same assumptions were made 5-7 years ago when 1200 hrs was considered low time. What about 10 years ago when airlines started hiring 1500-2000 hr flight instructors with no other experience?