Is it safe?

[Eric]

I'm instructing in a 150 that has a turn and bank indicator. I don't think it is electrically driven. There is no flag to indicate an electrical malfunction like a turn coordinator, and when the RPM's are at idle, the needle wobbles, and then steadies as you bring the power to 1000 RPMs.

Has anyone ever manufactured a plane where all three gyros were vaccuum driven? Is there a way to find out what drives my turn and bank indicator? (by the way, it still shows a turn while taxiing with the master off)

I don't think flying IFR without a redundant bank instrument is a good idea. Anyone agree, disagree?

 

[EagleRJ]

The turn and bank indicator is almost certainly electrically driven. Can you hear it spool up when you turn the battery master on? If you've ever watched it in turbulance, you'll probably decide that it's not of much use if you were in a partial panel situation. They're not very stable, and that's probably why it shakes when the throttle is at idle. It may still show a turn when the master is off since the gyro will still be coasting after you turn the power off.

I think a turn coordinator is much more desirable, since it's more stable, and senses both rate of roll and rate of yaw, so it's more useful in both full panel and partial panel flying.

Lots of planes with an all-vacuum panel have been produced, as have planes with all electric gyros. It's nice to have redundancy, though.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I got an easy solution: Don't fly IFR in a single engine airplane. I did it because I had to, and I'll never do it again!

You lose the engine, where you gonna go?

I'll leave that stuff to people braver than I am!

 

[OtterFO]

I owned an early 60's cherokee that had all three gyro instruments air powered. It also had the old style backwards turning DG.

 

[avbug]

Three air driven gyros isn't uncommon. Particularly in airplanes with dual venturi tubes. A 150 isn't really much of an IFR platform, and single engine IFR is a questionable activity anyway. (for more reasons than having a single engine...such as having a single electircal source, single vacum source, often a carburetor more prone to carb ice in precipitation and visible moisture, very limited ice protection, limited or nonexistant weather detection capability, often limited navigational capability--stop me when the 150 fails to meet one of these criteria).

It's a great trainer for basic flying, but not really much of an instrument airplane.

Why don't you crawl under the panel and see what's attached to the back of the instrument? Seems like a fairly foolproof way of finding out, doesn't it? If it's a cannonplug, you can guess it's probably electrically powered, and if it's an AN fitting with a rubber or tygon hose, then you can follow it back to the vacum filter.

 

[350DRIVER]

I don't think flying IFR without a redundant bank instrument is a good idea. Anyone agree, disagree?

I agree with avbug, IFR in any single engine aircraft is very "questionable" at best in my mind for the obvious and not so obvious reasons. I will always have very high minimums when flying or instructing in actual IMC in a single engine aircraft. The last thing I would look forward to is having to shoot a ILS approach right down to "bare" minimums and have to worry about the "what if's" with regards to your one and only engine out there not to mention the lack of other things that most single engine training aircraft come equipped with or I should say lack of.

Give me "two" engines and I will shoot approaches right down to minimums all day and everyday, it is the "lack" of that one cannot do much about if you loose that one and only engine up front. Although as the saying goes "If you loose one engine the second will surely fly you to the scene of the accident." I just feel much more secure and confident in actual with two engines versus the one.

You loose that one and only engine in actual and God forbid the ceilings are way down then you are nothing more than a passenger along for the ride and you better have St. Joseph watching over your shoulder.

I will take the odds and stay away from low imc and single engine aircraft.

3 5 0

 

[tarp]

Flew an old 172 where the TI was vacuum and the AI was electric. Of course, that was easy to spot with the word "elec" in microprint on the bottom of the AI.

There are quite a number of IFR equipped C-150/152 models out in the world. A proud new neighbor of mine at the airfield was polishing his up and I went to introduce myself. Great dreams he had of doing all his IFR work, his Commercial time building and then selling the bird to the next hopeful.

About two weeks later, I saw the old "For Sale" banners on the props - I asked what happened and he said that he and his instructor took on some real IFR - he had never been so scared in his life. Funny, the C-152 is a lot of fun to go do hood work and shoot approaches in slo-motion but put it in real clouds and those stupid lifting forces bounce that little body around like a rag doll in a bull terrier's mouth. Kinda hard to do IFR training when all the needles are doing "sword" dances.

As I have gotten older, I too question the wisdom of entering IFR with only one engine. I think its an age thing. I own a lovely Cherokee that I maintain to much higher standards than any FBO. I trust that engine as much as I trust any engine I fly around. But I've still raised my personal minimums for IFR flight - I want an "out" lurking under all those clouds. Twin engines or my regional jet, it could be CatII everywhere around and I'm pretty confident (Hyperbole - making a point here). But I remember launching into the clag in some rental C-172's with marginal parts hanging in marginal ways and still I forged on - whoa, that gives me shivers today.

 

[bobbysamd]

Vacuum instruments

Look at the side of the aircraft. A venturi horn on the side should give you your answer.

I have flown in IMC single-engine and have taken students in IMC single-engine. Just beware of your weather. There's nothing the matter with it if you're not flying in icing conditions and you have reasonably high mins on the ground so you can decend to VMC. As a matter of fact, some of the best days I had in aviation were shooting approaches in warm clouds in 172s.

Also, consider your airplane. I've flown 172s plenty in IMC, but I, personally, would fly nothing less in such conditions. I agree 100% about not flying IFR without at least one electrically-driven gyro instrument. I flew a fixed-gear Cardinal in IMC and it was fine. 182s, Bonanzas, Arrows, etc., are perfectly fine single-engine IFR platforms.

 

[Timebuilder]

As I have gotten older, I too question the wisdom of entering IFR with only one engine. I think its an age thing. I own a lovely Cherokee that I maintain to much higher standards than any FBO. I trust that engine as much as I trust any engine I fly around. But I've still raised my personal minimums for IFR flight - I want an "out" lurking under all those clouds. Twin engines or my regional jet, it could be CatII everywhere around and I'm pretty confident (Hyperbole - making a point here). But I remember launching into the clag in some rental C-172's with marginal parts hanging in marginal ways and still I forged on - whoa, that gives me shivers today.

Just five years ago I too had no problem with the idea of blasting off into the murk single engine. Now, I don't mind doing it, IF I have cloud bases between 3,000 and 4,000 AGL while I'm up around seven or eight in IMC. Other than that, I like two engines, and I prefer the 731's on the back of the Lear!

 

[Snakum]

The upside of IFR in a 150/152 (and I have done it) is that your approach speeds are usually going to be so low that you can poke a leg out the door and feel around for the runway.



Minh

 

[Timebuilder]

Or, you can wait long enough while on final for the field to go VFR!

 

[jsoceanlord]

i was doing a pre purchase check flight in a citabria near louisville once, and the owner, (an old guy - and in the front seat), started a climb up through the overcast with needle and ball only!

i tapped him on the shoulder and pointed down

 

[Snakum]

(Holding my little finger upside-down at the corner of my mouth) Riiiiiiiiiight.

Minh

 

[TXCAP4228]

I got an easy solution: Don't fly IFR in a single engine airplane. I did it because I had to, and I'll never do it again!

You lose the engine, where you gonna go?

I'll leave that stuff to people braver than I am!

There sure are a lot of higher time pilots that are smarter than me, but where would I go if I was VMC and lost an engine? Where would I go at night? Its amazing that I'm still alive....

It seems to me that the trick is to fly good, well maintained airplanes. I've seen twins that I wouldn't fly in at all, let alone IFR.

Come on guys. A well maintained airplane that is trustworthy can be flown IFR reliably, whether its got one engine or ten.