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Is IAS the only concern?

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UnAnswerd

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Joined
Sep 13, 2004
Posts
607
Lets say you're in a C-172 with a brisk IAS of 140kts. Lets also say that your indicated altitude is 8500MSL. Now you figure to attain true airspeed, you can generally add 2% to the airspeed per 1,000' gain in altitude above sea level. So at 8500', we need to add aproxametly 17% to the IAS to find an approximate true airspeed. This would make out TAS close to 164kts.

But VNE is only 160kts according to the airspeed indicator. So does this mean that as long as red-line is not exceeded as seen on the instrument, we are okay regardless of altitude? Or, if our TAS exceeds VNE, would could be in trouble even if the IAS is only 140kts???

Any information would be greatly appreciated.
 
VNE is based on indicated airspeed. Jim Pilot. Please don't confuse him any more. IAS and CAS for all practical purposes are the same.
 
Okay, I had a feeling it was based on IAS but just wanted to be sure. Also, isn't calibrated airspeed moreless IAS corrected for small instrument inaccuracies, aircraft pitch, ect....?
 
I guess we shouldn't get into EAS in this thread ;)
 
VNugget said:
I guess we shouldn't get into EAS in this thread ;)
I know that EAS means equivilent airspeed, and is a factor in aircraft that have the ability to reach high airspeeds. Apparently, the high airspeeds have a tendency to actually compress the static air within the pitott passages. At the same time, this does not effect the static source within the insrument case, so therefore the result is an inaccurate airspeed reading.
 
Last edited:
Let me see APCooper, you couldn't take the time to answer his question but you could critize my attempt to help him within 5 minutes.

I haven't thought about this in a long time. Yes CAS is as you described Unanswered. Vne is an aircraft certification number, it is developed for all the aircraft of the same type (i.e. GV or C-172). While in most modern aircraft both IAS and CAS are the same (airdata computers handle the error corrections) in a C-172 they wouldn't be the same. So you couldn't quickly tell CAS but IAS is always available to you (hopefully).

Hopefully I answered what you were really asking. Consider this:

An aircraft is flying 2 knots above stall speed with a 10 knot headwind. He makes a 180 turn and now has a 10 knot tail wind. What will happen?

The answer to this question shows understanding of stall speeds etc.
 
Jim Pilot,

No offense. I was not trying to diminish you. Sorry if I offended you. All I was saying is I clearly remember when I had 5 hrs and all this stuff was overwhelming to me. Back then I'd have just wanted a simple answer, thats all.
 
No problem. I was over reacting because of some of the responses you see are just guys starting trouble.

I wish unanswered a successful time learning all this.
 
jimpilot said:
An aircraft is flying 2 knots above stall speed with a 10 knot headwind. He makes a 180 turn and now has a 10 knot tail wind. What will happen?
I would say he is still 2kts above stall. Although the groundspeed just increased 20kts, the aircraft is relative to the moving air mass, and subsequently the airspeed is still the same (2kts above stall). Hopefully I am correct.

Also thanks Jimpilot for the explanation.
 
Hey JimPilot, if there is a 120-knot headwind, and IAS is 120kts, I take it I could actually hover motionless over the ground????
 
Yes
In fact I have done something like that in a C-150. Slowflight with West Texas winds sometimes had you going backwards across the ground. Made the point of Ground Speed vs Airspeed very clear.
 
UnAnswerd said:
if there is a 120-knot headwind, and IAS is 120kts, I take it I could actually hover motionless over the ground????
When I was instructing I used to look forward to my lessons with some of my sharper commercial students, especially on "windy" days. Chandelles up to 5000-6000 feet, transition to slow flight and voila, we're flying backwards. It was fun to see who could get a zero knot groundspeed and maintain it the longest. Didn't happen too often, but it was a fun exercise.

Never thought I'd say it, but sometimes I actually miss instructing.:eek:
 
You never stop instructing. Be it a student or an FO, or a new FA, you're still instructing.

You're finished when you hang up the medical.
 
I’d like to know where you got a 172 to do140KIAS! It’s been awhile since I’ve flown one, but last I could remember 110KIAS S&L was about the best you could do.
Keep up the studying…
 
Shamrock,

Is the aviatar picture of the Yanks/Sox fight in the playoff game in 2003? Let me know.


GO RED SOX!!!!
 
Everyone was close.

Vne is predicated on Vd (Design Dive Speed, not venerial disease), which is based on Vc (Design Cruise Speed, not viet cong), and is equivilent airspeed (EAS), in accordance with 14 CFR 23.335, and 23.1505. This is for certification purposes. Speeds are calculated in knots.

Ultimately, the manufacturer may choose to represent these speeds to the customer in any form; calibrated or indicated, or even equivilent. The manufacturer may choose miles per hour for marketing purposes, or knots for traditionality. Or any combination of these.

What the manufacturer won't do is present these as true airspeeds.

For any given indicated airspeed, true airspeed may be greater or lesser than the rule of thumb values discussed hereto. TAS is a function of density altitude, which means that it varies with pressure altitude and temperature. Adding 2% per thousand feet doesn't account for changes other than standard pressure, and doesn't account at all for temperature.

With an increasein altitude, TAS increases, but indicated airspeed decreases. That is, for a given indicated airspeed, TAS increases with density altitude. One may remain at the same pressure altitude and fly to a warmer temperature, and see an increase in TAS, or one may remain at the same temperature gradient and climb in pressure altitude and see an increase in TAS. An increase in density altitude, comprising temperature, pressure altitude, or both increasing together, means higher TAS.

For a given TAS, indicated airspeed decreases with altitude.

Unanswered, you're wanting to know why the TAS can exceed Vne without a problem, while that isn't the case for IAS. Think about how we obtain indicated airspeed. We must go faster and faster with an increase in altitude to produce the same pressure against the airframe, and in the pitot tube to produce the same airspeed. Our TAS is increasing as we go up, but we're flying the same indicated airspeed. A different way to think about that is to say that if you stick your arm out the window at sea level, you'll feel a certain pressure against it, a certain resistance. You'll be screaming along a whole lot faster at altitude, even though you're only indicating the same airspeed, but you'll also only feel the same push against your arm that you did down lower.

The air is thinner, so it doesn't load the airplane as much. Indicated airspeed is a much better indicator (up to a point) of what the airload is doing to the airplane. Therefore, TAS doesn't mean much to the aerodynamic load on the airplane, where IAS gives a better idea of what's going out outside the airplane.

Now, as for the question:

An aircraft is flying 2 knots above stall speed with a 10 knot headwind. He makes a 180 turn and now has a 10 knot tail wind. What will happen?
At two knots above the stall, the aircraft will either descend in the turn, require more power, or stall while trying to maintain altitude in the turn. In a perfect environment in a nonturbulent, nongusting airmass, the aircraft will experience a change in ground speed, and assuming a level turn and adequate power and appropriate use thereof, will complete the turn at the same airspeed as that at which it entered the turn.

In the real world, two knots above stall and horsing the airplane into a turn is a good way to stall, especially in gusty conditions. To say nothing about the hotly contested, theoretically impossible, downwind turn and attendant (in this case) stall.

On the topic of zero groundspeed flight, I've effectively hovered (not a true hover, but a really, really slow vertical descent) into a tiedown spot and done vertical landings in light airplanes, with enough wind. Certainly it can be done, and is done. Consistent wind conditions are the safest circumstance under which to do it.
 
AVBUG--you have way too much time on your hands. Save yourself some time and just post the reference---ie..book name and page number.
 
So Dr.P what's faster, a Lear or a bass boat? It's got to be getting to be a close match up with the size/HP of the motors they put on those things. You could buy a Lycoming/Continental for the price of one of those outboards I bet.
 
apcooper said:
Is the aviatar picture of the Yanks/Sox fight in the playoff game in 2003? Let me know.

GO RED SOX!!!!
No, it was July 24th this year.

A-Rod was crying about getting hit by a pitch and the tears were blurring his vision, making it hard for him to find first base. Jason Varitek was simply attempting to show some Boston hospitality by directing him down the first base line and wiping away the tears with his glove, but Nim-Rod took it the wrong way. Go figure.:)
 
AVBUG--you have way too much time on your hands. Save yourself some time and just post the reference---ie..book name and page number.
I'm stuck in a hotel room, and don't have any books available...and hence, no page numbers. I'd be happy to make one up if you like.

So Dr.P what's faster, a Lear or a bass boat?
Depends. When you get the lear in the water, the bass boat is faster.

Getting the bass boat to FL410 is the real challenge.

There is no question that the lear climbs better. The lear doesn't float as long, and it's hard to catch fish from a learjet. Bass act as FOD in the engines.

You could buy a Lycoming/Continental for the price of one of those outboards I bet.
Or you could just get an airboat, that's got a Lyc or Continental already in place.

So is the barber pole there to account for compressability factors at altitude/higher IAS?
The barber pole moves down with increased altitude, as the same mach occurs at a lesser and lesser indicated airspeeds. A general rule of thumb is that one stops using indicated airspeed and transitions to mach around FL290, give or take some change. One can still use indicated airspeed at altitude, but mach provides a more precise measurement of airspeed, in more fine detail. The barber pole does change in response to compressibility as well as other factors associated with higher speed, higher altitude aerodynamic changes.
 
mmmdonut most 91/141 bug smasher instructors don't have experience with barber poles. Or bass boats. Thanks avbug I snorted loud enough to wake up the cat.
 
If a book was that easy, the guy would have figured it out by now instead of asking us. Don't criticize someone for being helpful -- this board is short in that department as it is.

Dr Pokenhiemer said:
AVBUG--you have way too much time on your hands. Save yourself some time and just post the reference---ie..book name and page number.
 
UnAnswerd,

Come to SoCal during Santa Ana winds and rent a C-152 with an instructor and go flying. You can actually go backwards over the ground while maintaining a positive IAS. So yes, it is possible, and it can be a lot of fun :)

UnAnswerd said:
Hey JimPilot, if there is a 120-knot headwind, and IAS is 120kts, I take it I could actually hover motionless over the ground????
 

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