Is Colgan going to be IBT?

[BirdCatcher]

give me a break of course they will fight.

first, have you ever heard of the teamsters to back down from a fight

second, they have a reputation to protect

third the bad press it would bring them would cost more then the fight to protect our group

Yoda,

Have you really looked into the Teamsters local 747? The answer is no, how do I know that? You said "of course they will fight, they have a reputation to protect." Please describe to me a situation recently where this has taken place.

I'm starting to realize that any union at colgan won't help us. There is too many that don't care enough to make any union successful. Since that is the case, I rather just deal with the status quo then status quo plus an apathetic and inept union.

 

[Axel]

give me a break of course they will fight.

first, have you ever heard of the teamsters to back down from a fight

second, they have a reputation to protect

third the bad press it would bring them would cost more then the fight to protect our group

I'll have whatever he's having.

I have yet to see the 747 take any kind of effective stand. No, that's not true. Some CHQ guys tried to run for office in the governing body of the 747 a couple years ago. The existing leadership defended against that extremely well.

They don't care about their reputation and nobody in the world cares about the press. They care very much about your dues, however.

Going with the 747 does not mean you will have a million kneecap breaking truck drivers on your side. A little research into the infrastructure and organization of the IBT will clear that misconception up.

The 747's leadership has absolute authority to make decisions that affect your life and has absolutely no accountability.

 

[DoinTime]

Horizon is teamsters, they have one of the best regional contracts out there.

How do you then explain Great Lakes and GoJets?

Net Jets' pilots were teamsters and took the fractional pay WAY over any regional contract and in fact pays better than ANY major's first 3 years' pay. Starting salaries at 57k is almost where the regional pay is in Europe.

If they are so great why did NetJets leave then?

It is a pilot group that will make their union. Not who it is in Washington or which pin they wear on their tie.

The pilot group will either achieve or fail to maximize on their potential. The national structure defines what that potential is.

 

[suupah]

I like cloudkicker. He is right F all of you we will go down swinging. Keep your crappy magazine and stupid lanyards we want teamsters.

Cloud kicker is gay.

 

[suupah]

give me a break of course they will fight.

first, have you ever heard of the teamsters to back down from a fight

second, they have a reputation to protect

third the bad press it would bring them would cost more then the fight to protect our group

Hey yoda,

maybe you should enlighten us with Teamsters record for not backing down from a fight when they are going to lose the union they are protecting by investing thousands and winning the fight! Talk about conflict of interest.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

How do you then explain Great Lakes and GoJets?

A union is only as strong as its members. PAY ATTENTION.

If they are so great why did NetJets leave then?

They got greedy and did not want to pay for IBT National's part of their dues. They were Teamsters when they got their contract, which is way better than ANY ALPA regional and have language that even the major pilots wish they had. FO's make over $70k/year 1st year if they want at Net Jets. Thanks to their Teamsters contract.

In case you weren't paying attention again, a union is only as strong as its members. Horizon - Strong Union. Good contract. ComAir - Strong Union. Good contract. Great Lakes - Weak union. Mesa - Weak union.

The strength of the pilots in the group is everything. For a strong union you need strong leadership who communicates thoroughly and the pilots trust. Once you have it, the bond is strong and the company can only close the doors or capitulate. History repeats itself EVERY single time and the outcome is solely dependent upon the strength of their members, NOT who they were paying dues to.

The pilot group will either achieve or fail to maximize on their potential. The national structure defines what that potential is.

Yeah? Tell that to the Net Jets or Horizon pilots.

The Net Jets pilots had an adversarial relationship with the Teamsters since day 1, because Net Jets had no other choice. ALPA wouldn't take them, even though they fall under the RLA and are pilots (bet they regret that in Herndon, now). The Teamsters only have an airline division and fractional aviation is VERY different than airline flying. Their local 234 included plumbers, electricians, etc. who were not pilots in the leadership and the leadership controlled the money. Their contract negotiations were crap, as was their pilot solidarity. They formed a new leadership, got out from under Treichler and formed their own local and had a contract in a year - THE contract. A damn nice contract that has already been amended once and is even better now than it was in November of '05. However, they still had to deal with IBT National, whos constitution and by-laws did not mesh well with their fractional pilots, and they are a big enough pilot group that they decided to leave the nest and do it on their own, as many other organizations did with ALPA. I certainly don't think a pilot group of less than 1500 pilots could consider going on their own vs. going with EITHER ALPA or the Teamsters, they couldn't afford negotiations alone, let alone all the other resources headquarters offers at both of these organizations.

I certainly am not overly pro teamsters. I know you may think I am based on what I'm saying, just giving you a teamsters' perspective. I most certainly think they have their problems as well, but I do not think that they have the same problems a regional has at ALPA. ALPA cares about its dues just as addictively (is that a word?) as the teamsters. (Hello, 401K - we're ALPA and we want our share!) - Also, ALPA has consistently shown the conflict of interest that exists between regional and major carriers competing for the same flying, and ALPA has a HABIT of throwing regional carriers under the bus (US Air Express Jets for Jobs, Freedom, etc.) as well as having no problem in basically FORGETTING about long-time and HUGE dues contributors during mergers (TWA and US Air). I do not see ALPA being "better" than the Teamsters for any regional based on history.


There are pro's and con's for going teamsters I think for these guys, just like there are pro's and con's for going ALPA. It should take some serious thought. Anyone thinking that a "decent" merger should happen if they were ALPA vs. Teamsters should talk to the folks at US Air and see how that went for them. We'll see what happens with Delta and Northwest (and Compass). Conversely, we all saw what happened to the TWA guys when AA bought them. One thing's for sure - if they do NOT have a union and merge, they are REALLY screwed. If they have ANY union, WITH a contract, they will have SOME protection. They don't have anything right now. BAD situation. MUST change.

Also, so you know, Don Treichler, who ran not only the 747 but the teamsters airline division (and was a crook if you ask me) for decades is GONE. When he and like his 4 or 5 staff he had for his entire DIVISION left they replaced him with over 20 people. He was hording all the jobs to himself. That's changed over there and I've HEARD (not seen) good things regarding that change. Treichler is why Net Jets formed 1108 and the reason flight options went with the 1108, they wanted NOTHING to do with that guy. It was the right move.

Having said that, I am a current teamster illegally fired by Flight Options for being a union supporter (me and 70 others). I have yet to see what the Teamsters will do for me about that, although this week things are supposed to be happening (IE, the company's on its knees and the flight options pilots will not sign a TA without those pilots getting their jobs back, and they know it, so now they want to get them back).

Believe me, I think the teamsters have their problems. If things don't happen the way *I* want them to happen, they'll definitely be hearing from me, AND from my lawyer, as will the company. Net Jets left because they want to do their own thing and they don't like the constraints of being a sub-unit of IBT National, they want to call their own shots (and with that, take all the responsibility a union's national headquarters takes on). Personally, I think it was the wrong call, a greedy call, and one they may some day regret - especially since it was with the help of Wilder & Wilder, the IBT's law firm, that got them their contract. Now that they got it, they are leaving them. Whatever - that's their choice, that's what their pilots voted for. I wish them the best with it.

ALPA also has a very ugly history with how they treat regionals and ALPA-ALPA and ALPA-NON-ALPA mergers. It's all about the money for them, NOTHING else matters.

Either one is better than nothing. ALPA has the strength of the majority of the industry under its belt and airlines are not the IBT's main bread and butter. Those are definitely valid points. They both have their drawbacks and the pilots should think and discuss it long and hard, their future is at stake. I don't know which way I'd vote if i had to vote on that, today, and I'm a former ALPA and Teamster Union member and leadership member for both of them. Tough call. It would take some hard thinking and research. It's a sucky decision to be forced to make, but they need to make it.

Good luck, guys.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If a union is only strong as its members then who cares about the brand.... right?

First you say this... and then you spank ALPA for the USAIR merger.... but then what about TWA? That was ALPA vs APA....

So if we go back to the notion of a union is only as strong as its members then why do you think NJA pilots shucking IBT national and going solo is a mistake?

Pinnacle recently received 2MM from ALPA National support. Has IBT national ever given a regional 2MM?


What it really comes down to is this... being a pilot in the teamsters is like trying to get special treatment as a prisoner from other prisoners in a block cell....

Does the IBT testify before Congress on pilot issues? ALPA does.

Is the IBT part of International Federation of Air Line Pilots?

A majority of pilots at carriers like Colgan do want to move on.... there is a good chance that they will move on to an ALPA carrier. The pilots at legacy carriers have more will to pushback at management. Why? Where else are they going to go? Its not like they are trying to keep their employment file clean so they can move on like we do at the regionals. Better to become familiar with ALPA at Colgan, so one can be more effective later...

If a union is only as strong as its pilots then why not belong to a union is of pilots, for pilots and by pilots.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

If a union is only strong as its members then who cares about the brand.... right?

First you say this... and then you spank ALPA for the USAIR merger.... but then what about TWA? That was ALPA vs APA....

Yeah, I brought that up. Both of those scenarios.

So if we go back to the notion of a union is only as strong as its members then why do you think NJA pilots shucking IBT national and going solo is a mistake?

What is it with you guys and your reading comprehension skills? You only read what you want to read and ignore the things that discount your argument. It makes you look incompetent. Re-read my post, I answered that question in detail.

Pinnacle recently received 2MM from ALPA National support. Has IBT national ever given a regional 2MM?

I don't know, my guess is yes. Do you think Great Lakes pays for their own negotiations and is operating in the black? Who do you think pays their bills?

What it really comes down to is this... being a pilot in the teamsters is like trying to get special treatment as a prisoner from other prisoners in a block cell....

Does the IBT testify before Congress on pilot issues? ALPA does.

Yes, they do. They have done so for Net Jets pilots a lot. They also have lobbyists and it was from a LOT of work from Net Jets teamsters that 91(k) came into existance. Know your facts before you make such assumptive comments, please.

Is the IBT part of International Federation of Air Line Pilots?

Dunno. Is ALPA? So what. What has that done for me, Captain Regional pilot? IF this is an international federation, maybe someday by osmosis ALPA carriers will start to make as much money as the european or asian carriers. However, what will really happen, is since ALPA did not fight hard enough to defeat age 65, that the other ICAO things will come into play, such as 12 hours a day of flying in 16 hour duty days, 14 different tests for an ATP (which cost up to $1500 just in testing fees to obtain), yadda yadda yadda. What does being a member of the IFAP do for U.S. regionals? Not a damn thing.

A majority of pilots at carriers like Colgan do want to move on.... there is a good chance that they will move on to an ALPA carrier.

There is agood chance they may go on to a Teamsters carrier too. Unless you are talking merger. Clarify.

The pilots at legacy carriers have more will to pushback at management. Why? Where else are they going to go? Its not like they are trying to keep their employment file clean so they can move on like we do at the regionals. Better to become familiar with ALPA at Colgan, so one can be more effective later...

If you say so. That's a lame excuse to choose a Union - "it will prepare you for when you go to a major"? Come on.

If a union is only as strong as its pilots then why not belong to a union is of pilots, for pilots and by pilots.

Again. Ask what ALPA did for AA (YEARS ago, before they were APA), TWA, US Air, US Air Express.


Look. You can worship ALPA all you want. I did not say that ALPA is not a good Union to be in, nor did I say they shouldn't go with ALPA. I did not throw out ANY opinion as a matter of fact on which one would be better. I said the Teamsters should not be discounted is all, and are definitely worth consideration. You can argue that all you want, but if you look at Horizon and Net Jets you can't discount that the Teamsters CAN do something for the industry, and CAN do something for an airline, and no matter how high you have your head up ALPA's ass, they are NOT perfect and if you think they won't throw a small pilot group of pilots under the bus in a heartbeat you are not very wise to the industry.

That's all I have said, and you have not disputed those facts, so what is your point exactly? I'll tell you - You love ALPA, you have no experience with the Teamsters and are going off of what you read on flightinfo for your opinion. I've paid dues and held leadership positions in both organizations. I think I'm qualified to state that the teamsters are not the heartless, incompetent and impossible idiots you are trying to make them out to be. In my experience, neither one is more incompetent or heartless to pilots and they both have major issues, but the those issues are far out-weighed by the positives they supply their members.

That's all I'll say. This isn't my decision and quite frankly I'm glad I don't have to make it, I wouldn't look forward to the research involved to make an EDUCATED decision instead of one based on people who don't know all the facts on this message board.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yeah, I brought that up. Both of those scenarios.



What is it with you guys and your reading comprehension skills? You only read what you want to read and ignore the things that discount your argument. It makes you look incompetent. Re-read my post, I answered that question in detail.

One has to have national support..... the IBT was taking 2MM from the NJA pilots providing no value.

The NJA pilots going solo will have pros and cons...

I don't know, my guess is yes. Do you think Great Lakes pays for their own negotiations and is operating in the black? Who do you think pays their bills?

Either you know or not. Shouldn't you know your facts as you chide me for not knowing below...

I say not... but I am not pushing the IBT...

Yes, they do. They have done so for Net Jets pilots a lot. They also have lobbyists and it was from a LOT of work from Net Jets teamsters that 91(k) came into existance. Know your facts before you make such assumptive comments, please.

What type of lobbying?

Dunno. Is ALPA? So what.

You are saying ALPA isn't as good as IBT and you don't know? Know your facts?

What has that done for me, Captain Regional pilot? IF this is an international federation, maybe someday by osmosis ALPA carriers will start to make as much money as the european or asian carriers. However, what will really happen, is since ALPA did not fight hard enough to defeat age 65, that the other ICAO things will come into play, such as 12 hours a day of flying in 16 hour duty days, 14 different tests for an ATP (which cost up to $1500 just in testing fees to obtain), yadda yadda yadda. What does being a member of the IFAP do for U.S. regionals? Not a damn thing.

Not a damn thing? Wow... this is a global economy and global aviation market place.... If you want to believe you can create a local bubble and not be effected by by what is going internationally, then go for it... but don't be surprised as the changes keep coming..

There is agood chance they may go on to a Teamsters carrier too. Unless you are talking merger. Clarify.

More pilots are represented by ALPA. the numbers speak...

If you say so. That's a lame excuse to choose a Union - "it will prepare you for when you go to a major"? Come on.

Well you agree on unions in principle... the more experience one has the more effective one can be...

Again. Ask what ALPA did for AA (YEARS ago, before they were APA), TWA, US Air, US Air Express.

Do you know why AMR pilots left ALPA? Either you do or don't.

Look. You can worship ALPA all you want. I did not say that ALPA is not a good Union to be in, nor did I say they shouldn't go with ALPA. I did not throw out ANY opinion as a matter of fact on which one would be better. I said the Teamsters should not be discounted is all, and are definitely worth consideration. You can argue that all you want, but if you look at Horizon and Net Jets you can't discount that the Teamsters CAN do something for the industry, and CAN do something for an airline, and no matter how high you have your head up ALPA's ass, they are NOT perfect and if you think they won't throw a small pilot group of pilots under the bus in a heartbeat you are not very wise to the industry.

Thanks for the personal insults... real pro of you...

I don't care what union we have or what its called. However we do need to be under one union. That is were the effectiveness is...

The IBT has other issues... they are not pilot dedicated...

That's all I have said, and you have not disputed those facts, so what is your point exactly? I'll tell you - You love ALPA, you have no experience with the Teamsters and are going off of what you read on flightinfo for your opinion. I've paid dues and held leadership positions in both organizations. I think I'm qualified to state that the teamsters are not the heartless, incompetent and impossible idiots you are trying to make them out to be. In my experience, neither one is more incompetent or heartless to pilots and they both have major issues, but the those issues are far out-weighed by the positives they supply their members.

Once again... I don't love ALPA... in fact I am frustrated with ALPA as much as the next guy...

I don't think the IBT is all bad... I just think they have other labor groups to worry about and when pilots have issues the truckdrivers think pilots are prima donnas. The IBT aviation division doesn't match what ALPA can do, despite the new guy..

That's all I'll say. This isn't my decision and quite frankly I'm glad I don't have to make it, I wouldn't look forward to the research involved to make an EDUCATED decision instead of one based on people who don't know all the facts on this message board.[/quote]

fair enough...

 

[DoinTime]

Again. Ask what ALPA did for AA (YEARS ago, before they were APA), TWA, US Air, US Air Express.

What did the Chautaqua Teamsters do for Shuttle America?

You can argue that all you want, but if you look at Horizon and Net Jets you can't discount that the Teamsters CAN do something for the industry, and CAN do something for an airline

You can never really make a true comparison between anyone in this industry. Horizon has what they have because ACA and Comair had just signed big contracts just before them. NetJets is not a regional and should not be compared to one. Their customers have an excess of money, thats why they can charter their own flight and not have to airline it.

Ultimately, the measure of a Union's success can be measured from the willingness of their management group to deal fairly with their employees and their timing of negotiations in the marketplace. SWA's pilot union is not the powerhouse that their working agreement would suggest. They got a fair deal at the time the deal was struck and then the industry fell down around them. The same can be said for Horizon.

Two things are for sure. Pinnacle Corp/Colgan management will not deal fairly with the Colgan pilots and the marketplace timing is not good.