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Is $10K enough for the Former America West pilots?

vetrider

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So you'll trade the better of two lousy outcomes for a chance to pound your chest and say "See, we can vote No, too!"

Pounding a chest has nothing to do with it. I don't think this mou helps west pilots in the interim, in fact for many I think it will hurt them.
 

Bringupthebird

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Pounding a chest has nothing to do with it. I don't think this mou helps west pilots in the interim, in fact for many I think it will hurt them.
How will the west pilots fare without any formal protections? You are not choosing between a bad agreement and a better agreement. You are choosing between a lifejacket and meat-flavored swim trunks in shark infested waters.

BTW, USAPA wanted sharks as pets to make them look tough.
 

General Lee

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WHO CARES? You obviously do. I think NIC should have done your arbitration with AT, but that didn't happen. NIIIICE! Oh sorry, NIIIIIC. You are such a jealous cheeseball.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

General Lee

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Why so Poo-poo General?

No, I just think the East guys are wheenies for not accepting arbitration they helped sign up for. If you decided to do something that is binding, then you need to abide by the decision. It's like gambling. If you lose in poker at a casino, do you just take your money back and run? No. Arbitration is a gamble, and the East guys just didn't like the result. That award will follow them, and eventually be awarded, and the APA guys know it too.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

Turtle21

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The US pilots are in a situation much more similar to what Frontier faced with Southwest that what APA faced with AA. Don't overestimate your ability to craft the outcome through emotional votes.

Nope, the only vote you can make, once you fully realize the irreparable harm done by USAPA, is YES. The east pilots are 100% to blame for all US pilots being in this weak position and should be reminded of it perpetually.

Emotional is when pilots fixate on the past internal union dispute rather than on what the company wants to do going forward. If your vote feels good because you hope it hurts the other pilot group (regardless of how bad it also hurts you) then you are emotional.

The fact is the MOU hurts all of us. It is full of concessions, even though we are not in bankruptcy.
--The furlough protection last less than two years.
-- He can reduce the fleet by 15% per year for narrow body and 20% for wide body
-- he can code share on any carrier that code shares with AA
-- he has no limit to the E-190s he can add

Our concessions pay for the APA pensions.... It goes on and on. We are not in bankruptcy. Why should we agree to more concessions?

DUI promises there will be over a billion dollars of profit gained by synergies, he better not be relying on more concessions from us to get to that number!
 

Carl S.

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East pilots have done nothing but harm to West pilots for the last seven years (i.e. RICO, Distance learning payback, no true representation....), so now we forget the past and move forward together for a bright shinny future? The East will vote 60/40 Yes at a minimum on this, the West is the swing vote for a 4000 strong pilot group. If I can return the harm to any AFO ( Post 1986 hire) that is where my voting is going. Revenge feels better than money in my pocket any day and you guys have this day coming since 2005, just wait till APA lubes your DOH dream right where it belongs....
 

General Lee

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Emotional is when pilots fixate on the past internal union dispute rather than on what the company wants to do going forward. If your vote feels good because you hope it hurts the other pilot group (regardless of how bad it also hurts you) then you are emotional.

The fact is the MOU hurts all of us. It is full of concessions, even though we are not in bankruptcy.
--The furlough protection last less than two years.
-- He can reduce the fleet by 15% per year for narrow body and 20% for wide body
-- he can code share on any carrier that code shares with AA
-- he has no limit to the E-190s he can add

Our concessions pay for the APA pensions.... It goes on and on. We are not in bankruptcy. Why should we agree to more concessions?

DUI promises there will be over a billion dollars of profit gained by synergies, he better not be relying on more concessions from us to get to that number!

No, the other group will feel justification when the SLI is correct, to where it was AWARDED. After that, then you can focus on NOT taking more concessions. First things first. Your EAST group accepted binding arbitration, and you can't escape that. You are right though, any current concessions would go towards paying APA pensions in the future. Don't cave on that. Just fix the SLI part first. Many of you don't seem to care what anyone else thinks, but it really is shameful.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

JudgeSmails218

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Emotional is when pilots fixate on the past internal union dispute rather than on what the company wants to do going forward. If your vote feels good because you hope it hurts the other pilot group (regardless of how bad it also hurts you) then you are emotional.

The fact is the MOU hurts all of us. It is full of concessions, even though we are not in bankruptcy.
--The furlough protection last less than two years.
-- He can reduce the fleet by 15% per year for narrow body and 20% for wide body
-- he can code share on any carrier that code shares with AA
-- he has no limit to the E-190s he can add

Our concessions pay for the APA pensions.... It goes on and on. We are not in bankruptcy. Why should we agree to more concessions?

DUI promises there will be over a billion dollars of profit gained by synergies, he better not be relying on more concessions from us to get to that number!


I think you guys don't realize that the MOU is more or less a bridge agreement for the next couple of years--it's not forever.
Secondly, I don't think it's perfect, but it gives the US Airways pilots a voice and seat at the table. Without it, we will basically just be going along for the ride.
The max number of hull reductions would be 17 out of 329, worse case and, given the retirements and new duty time regs, we would still probably have to hire.
It also protects the shuttle flying, Hawaii.
It provides for pay parity on DAY 1 with the American pilots.
I'd be surprised if we got a second chance on this as I believe they may be looking at signing the NDA, in which case all forms of negotiating would probably not be allowed.
The negotiating committee as well as our "resident expert" negotiator think we should approve it as well. We've not listened to various experts in the past and have been burned. Just my .02.
 

Tweaker

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^^^^ What he said.

"-The furlough protection last less than two years. " I don't recall this being the deal. Anyone confirm? Is that in the part about when the fences come down or 18 mos after Single Carrier?
 

Flybywire44

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Are you folks aware that the Scope in the US Air term sheet allows 670 regional aircraft?

Based off of 800 Narrow Body Airframes
  • 40% or 352 aircraft — 70 Seat (24,640 seats)
  • 35% or 308 aircraft — 81 Seat (24,948 seats)

Total Physically Outsourced Seats: 49,588

Delta Scope (New Contract)
  • 102 aircraft — 70 Seat (7,140)
  • 223 aircraft — 76 Seat (16,948)

Total Physically Outsourced Seats: 24,088​
 

Bringupthebird

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Emotional is when pilots fixate on the past internal union dispute rather than on what the company wants to do going forward.
So you don't have a problem with removing the DOH language from the C&BLs and voting on the SLI as a side letter with a joint contract to follow if the AA thing goes up in smoke (since it's all in the past and all...)? Great!

Buy my vote*! Accept NIC and then a vote on the MOU.

* As a USAPA MIGS, I reserve the right to change my mind and stick it to you anyhow with a clear conscience (Gold Standard and all).
 

johnsonrod

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If the NIC award is ignored and the America West pilots get hosed AGAIN in a merger scenario with AA, I would call that completely unacceptable. How do you define an arbitration award? By definition, both sides agree ahead of time that the outcome stands. That definition was ignored.

I really hope the America West guys assert themselves and make sure any integration is done AFTER the NIC award adjustment. Either that, or add an extra zero ($100,000) for each former America West pilot to partially account for the lost wages due to screwed up seniority, etc.

Stay strong America West pilots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Turtle21

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I think you guys don't realize that the MOU is more or less a bridge agreement for the next couple of years--it's not forever.
Secondly, I don't think it's perfect, but it gives the US Airways pilots a voice and seat at the table. Without it, we will basically just be going along for the ride.
The max number of hull reductions would be 17 out of 329, worse case and, given the retirements and new duty time regs, we would still probably have to hire.
It also protects the shuttle flying, Hawaii.
It provides for pay parity on DAY 1 with the American pilots.
I'd be surprised if we got a second chance on this as I believe they may be looking at signing the NDA, in which case all forms of negotiating would probably not be allowed.
The negotiating committee as well as our "resident expert" negotiator think we should approve it as well. We've not listened to various experts in the past and have been burned. Just my .02.

When is the last time you had a contract imposed on you without you negotiating on it and ratifying it? Seriously, when?

The idea that you need to buy a seat at the table is folly. Mgt cannot impose a contract on you outside of bankruptcy. They cannot establish a contract without negotiating and ratifying one, unless people accept the ill founded notion that we have to capitulate and buy our way to the table, at which point negotiations will have already been completed when you arrive at the table, since mgt got what they wanted when you paid out to come to the table.

They cannot impose a contract on us. We are not bankrupt. Don't pay them concessions to "get a seat at the table".
 

Flying Horses

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Emotional is when pilots fixate on the past internal union dispute rather than on what the company wants to do going forward. If your vote feels good because you hope it hurts the other pilot group (regardless of how bad it also hurts you) then you are emotional.

The fact is the MOU hurts all of us. It is full of concessions, even though we are not in bankruptcy.
--The furlough protection last less than two years.
-- He can reduce the fleet by 15% per year for narrow body and 20% for wide body
-- he can code share on any carrier that code shares with AA
-- he has no limit to the E-190s he can add

Our concessions pay for the APA pensions.... It goes on and on. We are not in bankruptcy. Why should we agree to more concessions?

DUI promises there will be over a billion dollars of profit gained by synergies, he better not be relying on more concessions from us to get to that number!

This MOU is not full of concessions - rather full of protections. It is what the name says, a memorandum of understanding between the company and the union that explains how the pilots of US Airways will be protected in the event of a merger with AA. It clarifies and addresses the concerns of the USAPA negotiating committee and puts it into a legally binding document.

About your points:

1. Furlough protection - what you said is just plain incorrect. In section 10, it clearly states that furlough protection will last for the entire duration of the new contract, which is 6 years.

2. Reducing fleet by 15 or 20% - what you wrote is actually distorting and taking out of context the meaning of that section. What that section is actually referring to is protections for US Airways pilots, not concessions, as your point sounds like. It is explaining that, during the time of seperate operations from when a merger is announced and full integration of the seniority lists and flight operations, one side (AA or US Airways) cannot grow (or shrink) at a different rate than the other side. This section further makes sure that one side cannot grow widebody fleets while the other side only grows narrowbodies - everything has to grow more or less equally. And, again, this section only applies limitedly. It ends when seniority fences come down or 18 months after getting a single operating certificate, whichever comes earlier.

3. Code sharing - Why shouldn't management be able to code share on AA? We would be the same airline after a merger, right? And, why shouldn't we maintain the current code sharing that AA already does? Nothing in this MOU says that any more code sharing will occur than already is occuring.

4. No limit to E-190s - Why would there be a limit to E190s? E190s are mainline aircraft flown by mainline pilots. Just as 320s are mainline aircraft flown by mainline pilots. It would be like telling the company you cannot add any 320s, 737s, etc to the fleet, but only 330s or 777s from now on. Any extra 190s that we may get would be growth aircraft, anyway. The fear that the entire new merged American Airlines would become 1 giant E190-only airline is just rediculous. And in this MOU, it even eases the worry that US Airways would become this giant E-190 only operation, while AA pilots would be flying all of the higher paying widebodies - by stating that extra E190 aircraft would be required to be distributed fairly to both sides.

Other points:

1. The Change of Control clause - what seems like a concession is not really a concession, in my opinion. The higher snapback wages that this change of control clause refers to will never happen in a million years, thus it can't be a concession if there is nothing really to lose. The company is just asking for the elimination of this worthless clause in the current contract, just so it will be easier to merge the airlines with more flexibility (and even maybe cheaper). But, it really is just a nuisance clause, as far as the company is concerned. Because the company can easily get around this jsut as they did during the AWA merger. (Because obviously AWA took control of the new merged airline, their management, their HQ, etc, but on paper it shows the old US Airways bought AWA to go around the COC clause, which would happen in this case as well). In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with giving the company more freedom to merge the airlines in the easiest and cheapest way possible. This will make for a stronger new merged airline, which will benefit all employees.
One more thing - if a merger does not go through with AA, the COC clause stays in tact anyway.

2. Loss of LPP's - this is meaningless, because McCaskill-Bond seniority integration supercedes (and incorporates LPP's) in a much better, fairer way.

3. Loss of min hulls/utilization - what appears to be a concession is not to me. These current protections protect the staffing (thus, jobs) of the pilots. These protections are simply being replaced with different kind of protections to protect jobs and staffing. These consist of furlough protections and pay-protections for displacements. The pay-protections will pay protect any pilot who gets displaced. 330 to 320, 767 to 737, or 320 to 190, etc. The company would not include these protections in the MOU and the AA Term sheet if they plan to shrink the airline. Besides, the min hulls/utilization that US Airways currently have would not work after a combined operational integration with AA anyway (there would be no more original US Airways or original AWA to have these min hulls). The min hulls/utilization protections that are currently in place are only designed so that 1 side (AWA or US Airways) could not shrink away while the other grows. These min hulls would not be included in a Joint contract anyway.

OK I'm almost done.

What this MOU does give to US Airways pilots is assuredness that US Airways pilots will be paid the same high rates offered to AA pilots on Day 1 of the meger. It assures equal representation of USAPA negotiators at all Joint contract negotiations. It gives US Airways pilots a nominal signing bonus. (This is small, I know, but without this MOU it would be zero.) It gives US Airways pilots furlough protection, displacement pay-protection, and other protections. It ammends the original AA term sheet to say a pay parity review with DL and UA will be at year 3 instead of year 6. It clarifies that a pilot can keep sick bank time in excess of 1000 hrs, if they have it currently. (The AA term sheet, of which the new merged contract will be based on has a sick bank limit of 1000 hrs) And there are other protections, too.

If this MOU does not get approved then all of these protections are gone, and eventually these so-called concessions will have occured anyway, because they will all be removed in the new American Airlines contract anyway. A contract, that will be negotiated solely by APA, then imposed on us when the merged US Airways-AA have been declared a single carrier by the NMB. In the meantime (months,years?) US Airways pilots will be paid their current ultra-low wages and maybe get furloughed.

In conclusion, I feel it is imperative to vote yes on this MOU. In my opinion, this MOU is good for all US Airways pilots, West, East, and "Third-Listers." This is not like a TA where you can vote no, and then go back to negotiating. If this does not pass, then the MOU and its protections would simply go away, with the merger still going through, with US Airways pilots looking from the outside and getting paid their current ultra-low wages for the foreseeable future.

Thank you for your time reading this!
 

Bringupthebird

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When is the last time you had a contract imposed on you without you negotiating on it and ratifying it? Seriously, when?

The idea that you need to buy a seat at the table is folly. Mgt cannot impose a contract on you outside of bankruptcy. They cannot establish a contract without negotiating and ratifying one, unless people accept the ill founded notion that we have to capitulate and buy our way to the table, at which point negotiations will have already been completed when you arrive at the table, since mgt got what they wanted when you paid out to come to the table.

They cannot impose a contract on us. We are not bankrupt. Don't pay them concessions to "get a seat at the table".
The better question is when have you had to work under conditions for which you didn't vote? When have you had to subordinate your rights to a tyrannical majority?

I agree, this is not buying a seat at the table. It is humbly accepting a crumb from the table. The unchecked behavior of the so-called leaders of USAPA forfeited our seat at the table.

You traded a few minutes of chest pounding for crumbs.
 

charlie2

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How will the west pilots fare without any formal protections? You are not choosing between a bad agreement and a better agreement. You are choosing between a lifejacket and meat-flavored swim trunks in shark infested waters.

BTW, USAPA wanted sharks as pets to make them look tough.

With frickin lazers on their frickin heads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pozlp_wnkRk
 
Last edited:

Metrojet

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East pilots have done nothing but harm to West pilots for the last seven years (i.e. RICO, Distance learning payback, no true representation....), so now we forget the past and move forward together for a bright shinny future? The East will vote 60/40 Yes at a minimum on this, the West is the swing vote for a 4000 strong pilot group. If I can return the harm to any AFO ( Post 1986 hire) that is where my voting is going. Revenge feels better than money in my pocket any day and you guys have this day coming since 2005, just wait till APA lubes your DOH dream right where it belongs....


Hey Carl
That is quite a spin on how your going to vote
A little angry at the AFO's huh
Your the one who applied at AWA - don't hate us for that
 
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