Iraq and Afghanistan: 50 Billion 2005

[Dizel8]

"WASHINGTON - Wars in Iraq (news - web sites) and Afghanistan (news - web sites) will cost more than $50 billion next year, a top Defense Department official told Congress Thursday in the Bush administration's clearest description yet of the conflicts' price tags."

Hmmm, price seems to be rising sharply! But hey, for 50 really, really big ones, we get, uhmm, ahhhh, hmmm. Well, we really don't get anything. Not cheaper oil, not freedom for terror, not respect. So at least we got that going for us!

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

And to think that it would only cost 6 billion dollars to make Iraq into a glass wasteland. Think of the cost savings!

 

[Singlecoil]

That is a $50 billion supplemental request. That is on top of the Defense budget that has already been appropriated. In other words that is $50 billion in addition to what has already been authorized for operations in Iraq and Afghanistan for fiscal 2004.

...and remember, if you vote against it, you are voting against the troops and your opponent will use that in his/her commercials agianst you.

 

[DIAMONDDD]

OR

OR, you could actually vote FOR it, BEFORE you vote against it.

 

[chawbein]

If my kids and grand-kids don't have to fight these people in the future, then it is money well spent. No matter what the cost, it's worth it to me.

EDIT: One more note. I will do my D@MNDEST to make sure this war is won. None of that baby-boomer, wishy-washy, cry-baby bullsh!t here.

 

[sky37d]

WE MUST PREVAIL
The thing that I always remember is something attributed to Ossama Bin Laden, that America is a paper tiger. He said that after we lost people in Somalia and ran away.

His efforts are to prove that America has no stomach for war. He is right, if you listen to the liberal press. Unfortunately, if we turn tail and run from this one, we have lost our ability to exert any influence anywhere in the world, and will be relegated to worse than 3 rate power status. e.g., lower than France.

We must prevail, we must 'win'. If we do not, our world will be run by Islamic Extremist, who, will have demonstrated, we will not stand up to. Not what I have worked for. Not what I fought for.

 

[merikeyegro]

Um...don't you think we're kinda already screwed? The Iraqis don't want us there. The Arab world is pissed...and likely recruiting terrorists as we speak. We're torturing prisoners not only in Iraq, but in Afghanistan and Cuba (reports from the ICRC say that 70-90% of those held are likely INNOCENT). $50 billion extra isn't going to help the situation. All the supplementals in the budget and STILL these guys don't have batteries or body armor. Where's the $$ going?

This is too much money. It doesn't matter if we stay or if we cut and run at this point. The war is lost. Paper tiger, big bombs, whatever. More troops, less troops. Bad policy breeds lousy execution. Too bad our troops have to put up with this. Neither Bush nor Kerry can win this thing at this point. It's not a matter of whether or not we leave, it's how soon. Just staying there to watch it fall out of our hands doesn't sound as if it's worth $50 billion.

They'll get their money because senators know it takes money to leave with all your stuff. If they don't get their cash, they can't clean up in time to leave, and this will likely cause casualties. It does not, however, mean that Congress is supporting this action much anymore. They just know that leaving a man in the middle of a lion's cage without a spear is a bad idea. They may wonder what in the hell the man is doing in the middle of the cage, but they'd like to see him live long enough to get out. That's where we're at today.

"We must prevail" is a phrase lost on the rest of the world. Only Bush could take international goodwill after 9-11 and piss it down the drain. Hell, even Britain is thinking of distancing itself - www.guardian.co.uk.

We must prevail in the War on Terrorism, not in Iraq. They are NOT the same. Concentrate your time and money where it belongs.

 

[Dizel8]

While I think we are attempting to do the right thing, we just cannot win this.

Even if we managed to create a democratic goverment in Iraq, that will not end the terrorism. No, it will not be state sponsored, which is good, but as we have seen, all it takes is two guys and a truck. Even 9/11 was probably perpetrated by less tha 50 guys total, if even that many.

There will always be some radical element, that belives, that we have to "pay" for the "injustices" we have done. Be it our support of Israel or whatever other cause someone dislikes.

I suppose we could try and do like Israel. If they deem you a threat, you will be eliminated, but as we have seen, bombs are still getting into Israel.

What we need to do, is to win peoples heart, but that is something, I cannot realistically ever see happening.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Two guys and a truck only attacked the US once. Al'Q attacked the US multiple times. You are right in that you can't stop them all, but you can stop most of them. And when it comes to killing hundreds or thousands of people, you want to stop as many of them as possible.

We didn't get any international goodwill after 9/11. We just got a "we're sorry you got mugged" card.

We are in a battle for our survival. The Iraqi resistance and Al'Q are only two players in this game. Many say 'but Iraq wasn't in the WTC attacks!' Yes, but they have the same goals as Al'Q who did the attacks. I won't differentiate those who attack the US and those who cheer them on.

 

[chawbein]

While I think we are attempting to do the right thing, we just cannot win this.

Wow. Let's just give up then. Let's resign ourselves to our own shores, and when something bad happens, beg for forgiveness and understanding. Let's just give up the world to tyranny and oppression. You think there's an unwinnable war now, just wait until after the vacuum created by a US that withdraws itself from the rest of the world.

Butch up America! Do the difficult things instead of running and crying whenever we hit a setback.

 

[sky37d]

Butch up America! Do the difficult things instead of running and crying whenever we hit a setback.

Whic would put us in the position of never being able to do anything, to sit and be at the mercy of any and every extremist around the world.

Suggestions:
1. Warn the populace that all arms, rocket launchers, AK-47's, claymore's must be turned in, and they must turn in anyone who shoots at Americans. Give them a week to comply.
2. EMP bomb any city that has a shoot out with American Soldiers. This will detonate anything that has an unprotected circuit, short out their cell phones so they can't call each other, and blind Al Jazera(sp?) and CNN.
4. When there is an attack on American forces, withdraw and call in the C-130 carrying a BLU-96 Fuel Air Explosive. That will take care of those who would shoot at us.
5. Keep doing all of the above, because any pause will only weaken our position, and strengthen theirs.

 

[merikeyegro]

The point of this argument is not that we should cut and run. It's that all the money, troops, and high-minded sermons about "winning the hearts and minds" won't actually amount to anything. In the mind of Iraqis and the rest of the world, we're already done. It doesn't matter. We were heading down that plank before all these prisoner pictures came out. Now we're just about to reach the end of it. No one is saying cut and run. We're just saying that we might just as well. It won't matter if we stay. We've lost. We might as well lose with our money than lose having blown over $500 billion on a failed policy.

You're right. There will always be terrorists. Therefore, concentrate on the ones you can stop. Put your money into those operations that stand a chance of stopping terrorism. If you try to find and stop EVERYTHING, you will go bankrupt trying. Look at the TSA. They treat everyone as a hijacker, although random testing has proven to be equally as effective as comprehensive testing. The GAO even reported that aviation security today is no better than prior to 9-11. What has that $15-per-leg September 11th fee gotten you? Fancy uniforms on your screeners. Nothing else. The government can try to stop all terrorism. It won't succeed - not in a world this big. It's called Murphy's Law and the law of chaos. Too many moving parts for everything to go perfectly. Something will give.

Not a one of us here can argue that this war has made terrorism less of an issue. If anything, it's now worse. Hussein was a bastard, but he didn't like terrorists in his country any more than he did dissidents. All were a threat to his regime. Sadly, Hussein was the only thing holding that place together. We're less safe today because of this war. Make this $50 billion the last of it. We pulled out of Vietnam and communism didn't spread throughout the world. I doubt that leaving Iraq will create a worse problem than we're already creating.

The tail wags the dog.

 

[Dizel8]

No, I do not think we would be giving up and as far as attack on our shores, I think you might be missing how terrorism operates. There are tens of thousands of radical muslims, that will stop at nothing, as we have seen, to kill us. Someone commited to perpetrating attacks, whether it be blowing himself up with a bomb in a mall or spreading anthrax, will probably be able to do it.

If anything, sky37d has some really good points. It is time for us to take off the gloves, to deal with evil in a way that leaves our resolve respected and strikes fear into the darkest depth of their being, but the question is, can this be done, with people who truly believe, that they will be rewarded in heaven and who will gladly give their lives for that.

The problem is, that such thoughts to us are foreign, other than in extreme situations and duress. It is certainly not something, we teach our kids from an early age. We saw the same in WWII with the japanese and had to resort to the use of Nuclear weapons, to show our extreme resolve and overwhelming might.

 

[Vector4fun]

We won't "win" this war we've set in motion in Iraq for the simple reason that we're attempting to fight a low-intensity "police action" with rules, against an enemy that knows no borders, no national identity, and no western style rules. We won't "pacify" those in Iraq who chose to resist our efforts because we have never defeated the Iraqi people, or the terrorists/insurgents who have crossed the border. We defeated Saddam's Army, but only in the sense that it no longer exists as a coherent force. The majority of the soldiers simply took off their uniforms and melted into the populace.

To defeat those who whould resist/harm us, we either have to turn the majority of the population against them; (Not likely given the vast differences in culture, history, and perception of America) or subject them to the same sort of WAR that we waged against Germany and Japan. A war where we killed and maimed tens of thousands of soldiers and civilians in a single bombing raid. Think Dresden or the Tokyo fire-bomb raids. Think Stalingrad or the last days of Berlin. Think Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Think five-six years of bitter warfare in which millions die.

Now, I'm certainly NOT proposing that's what we do in Iraq, because the majority of Iraqi [p] people [/b] have not done anything to the U.S. that warrants that type of retribution in my humble opinion. Certainly Saddam and his henchmen deserve some justice, but the Iraqi people don't. And this is the mistake of the NEO-Conservative thinking that we can just run around the world like Johnny Appleseed planting little western-style Democracy "seeds" and expect them to sprout Taco Bell and Starbuck fanchises like trees. Trees don't usually grow where the soil and environment do not favor their species. The long history and culture of the Arab peoples do not favor western style democracies.

The BEST we can realisticly hope to do now is find someone who can lead this little morass of feudal "tribes" who wouldn't be any "worse" than the Syrians or Iranians in overt hostility to the U.S. At worst, we'll be responsible for creating the conditions for a prolonged civil war which WILL result in the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

At some point, I predict, we'll simply declare "victory" and walk away, much like Vietnam. Al Qaeda doesn't need a "state" to sponsor their activities, (though it would certainly help.) As others have said, they can assemble a dirty bomb, for example, in any one of thousands of warehouses or garages in 50 different countries, perhaps even our own. Their biggest and most successful operation against us required 50 or so people to accomplish. Our best defense against same is a MUCH improved intelligence gathering capability, and the threat of overwhelming military retaliation towards any entity found guilty of helping them.

 

[Immelman]

If my kids and grand-kids don't have to fight these people in the future, then it is money well spent. No matter what the cost, it's worth it to me.

EDIT: One more note. I will do my D@MNDEST to make sure this war is won. None of that baby-boomer, wishy-washy, cry-baby bullsh!t here.

I would love to believe you chawbien, but the history of Mesopotamia tells a different story.... this is a war of ideals - that region has been fought over by invaders since long before the time of Christ... and guess what, the same people are still there, doing their thing.

 

[merikeyegro]

Agreed. We bombed the hell out of Japan and Germany and they gave up. This is likely because the people saw that their leaders were idiots and that they could no longer go on as aggressors. In Iraq, we're the aggressors. The Iraqi people have no leader to depose. They don't get to look back and see the error in their ways.

Germany and Japan during WWII were following Hitler and Akihito. Most Iraqis hated Hussein and didn't try to kill him for fear of torture and dismemberment. To compare the two is comparing apples to oranges. There is no real comparison.

This is, simply, a failed policy. We cannot turn Iraq into a parking lot and solve the problem. Most people hated the Japanese and Germans and, likely, didn't really give a rat's a$$ if anyone nuked 'em. Sad, but true. I think world opinion would be just a little different should we do the same to Iraq. After all, are they ALL terrorists? No more than ALL Americans are like Bush...

Neoconservatives need to wake up and acknowledge a failed policy. True conservatism (paleoconservatism?) doesn't promote getting involved in foreign, pre-emptive wars. Deal with domestic issues, defend your borders, keep government small, and keep the money from being wasted. Simple as that...

 

[Vector4fun]

One other factor regarding Japan's surrender. We allowed their Emperor, Hirohito, to remain on his throne. BIG reason, he was the ONE Japanese who could command his people and troops to submit to surrender and Allied occupation of their homeland. It's very likely we would have had to invade Japan, even after the A-bomb, had we not agreed to allow them to keep their Emperor. That would have meant hundreds of thousands more casualties on both sides....

Of course, we also took some Germans who were directly involved in the death of thousands of civilians, and made them "heros" of the American Space Program....

 

[LAZYB]

Whic would put us in the position of never being able to do anything, to sit and be at the mercy of any and every extremist around the world.

Suggestions:
1. Warn the populace that all arms, rocket launchers, AK-47's, claymore's must be turned in, and they must turn in anyone who shoots at Americans. Give them a week to comply.
2. EMP bomb any city that has a shoot out with American Soldiers. This will detonate anything that has an unprotected circuit, short out their cell phones so they can't call each other, and blind Al Jazera(sp?) and CNN.
4. When there is an attack on American forces, withdraw and call in the C-130 carrying a BLU-96 Fuel Air Explosive. That will take care of those who would shoot at us.
5. Keep doing all of the above, because any pause will only weaken our position, and strengthen theirs.

Yeah, I think that would be a good start...

What the fuch is the multi-tasking BS. We haven't even secured the country and we're starting to rebuild it?! Letting prisoners out to rejoin the fight. Rebuilding whatever...Let's "sanitize" it and then let the stink blow off before we do anything else.

Bush, oil, blah, blah, blah...Billions, billions, billions...

You do the crime, you pay. This should be a pay as you go operation. Why should the American public pay to clean up that cesspool. Iraq should pay their bill. If they don't want to use oil. Great. Just send us the FN gold. He!! we don't even have to charge for the tanker costs.