dispatchguy
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Interviews: Common Courtesy by Companys?
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Resume Writer said:
I hate to seem obtuse, but it seems to me that a recurring cost is a recurring cost is a recurring cost regardless of the age of the person being trained. Upgrade cost is a one time event for each aircraft type, and the number of hours spent in the sim to prepare for and take a type rating check is about the same as the cost of a recurrent ride.
Since hardly anyone is offering defined benefit pension plans for new hires any more, the cost of someone retiring after 5 or 10 years is no more than the cost of someone retiring after 20 years. In fact, given the 401(k) vesting schedules used by most employers, I would argue that it would benefit an employer to hire someone who will retire in a few years. The few companies that still offer defined benefit plans would benefit even more, since they generally require ten years' service as a condition of drawing the company paid pension.
Resume Writer
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Resume Writer
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rettofly said:
Rettofly - It can be definately argued either way. But then again, we have all seen some stupid things that management has done in the name of saving money!
But trying to make sense of the things that are done sometimes would make us all go crazy. I know after several years at my airline, I would have to put on my "management issued non-logic hat" to make sense of what they did. Once that was on tight, everything made sense! 
bobbysamd
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Age discrimination
Yes, indeed, it does. And now you've heard it from someone who really does know.
I've been writing on this board for two-and-a-half years that age discrimination exists in pilot hiring, especially so at the regionals against older career changers. I have demonstrated logically that it happened to me. Read my other posts on the subject - but I'll make my point once more. At my school, ERAU-Prescott, the 25-and-under flight instructors were getting the interviews and jobs at the same places to which I, who was pushing forty (40) years old, was also applying but was hearing nothing. My quals and their quals were essentially alike. Enough total and multi time to meet mins, the required certificates and ratings, and four-year degrees. I exceeded some of the requirements. All professional aviation experience gained through flight instructing only. To simplify it further for those who still do not get it, the only difference between them and me was age. I was older.
Heretofore, all my allegations about age discrimination were met with strenuous denials, anecdotal responses to the contrary, assurances that it no longer exists, which I have refuted by recent examples, dismissive, caustic retorts that I don't know what I'm talking about and I should be disregarded, and even personal attacks. (If you cannot attack the person's argument, attack the person - sticks and stones . . . .) Now, here is credible proof from an expert that supports my allegations. Perhaps, now, some of you will believe what I have been saying. Perhaps, now, some of you will not dismiss it as sour grapes, whining, being a loser, or whatever.
Read my post above about legal authority that supports airlines' anti-age bias. Take that and Kathy's comments and consider it a prima facie case of the existence of age discrimination and that it victimizes people. Also consider both as cautionary advice if you are approaching forty and considering a career change to aviation.
As I wrote above, any kind of employment law case involving an institutionalized discriminatory hiring practice is hard to prove. The court cases I cited above, Coupi and Murnane, are only two examples of the hurdles to surmount for pilots wanting to challenge age bias. Not to mention that the only reason the hiring gods have to give is they liked the other applicants better - or whatever.
Thanks so much, Kathy, for an invaluable first post.
(emphasis added)Resume Writer said:
Yes, indeed, it does. And now you've heard it from someone who really does know.
I've been writing on this board for two-and-a-half years that age discrimination exists in pilot hiring, especially so at the regionals against older career changers. I have demonstrated logically that it happened to me. Read my other posts on the subject - but I'll make my point once more. At my school, ERAU-Prescott, the 25-and-under flight instructors were getting the interviews and jobs at the same places to which I, who was pushing forty (40) years old, was also applying but was hearing nothing. My quals and their quals were essentially alike. Enough total and multi time to meet mins, the required certificates and ratings, and four-year degrees. I exceeded some of the requirements. All professional aviation experience gained through flight instructing only. To simplify it further for those who still do not get it, the only difference between them and me was age. I was older.
Heretofore, all my allegations about age discrimination were met with strenuous denials, anecdotal responses to the contrary, assurances that it no longer exists, which I have refuted by recent examples, dismissive, caustic retorts that I don't know what I'm talking about and I should be disregarded, and even personal attacks. (If you cannot attack the person's argument, attack the person - sticks and stones . . . .) Now, here is credible proof from an expert that supports my allegations. Perhaps, now, some of you will believe what I have been saying. Perhaps, now, some of you will not dismiss it as sour grapes, whining, being a loser, or whatever.
Read my post above about legal authority that supports airlines' anti-age bias. Take that and Kathy's comments and consider it a prima facie case of the existence of age discrimination and that it victimizes people. Also consider both as cautionary advice if you are approaching forty and considering a career change to aviation.
As I wrote above, any kind of employment law case involving an institutionalized discriminatory hiring practice is hard to prove. The court cases I cited above, Coupi and Murnane, are only two examples of the hurdles to surmount for pilots wanting to challenge age bias. Not to mention that the only reason the hiring gods have to give is they liked the other applicants better - or whatever.
Thanks so much, Kathy, for an invaluable first post.
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bobbysamd
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Hiring old boys v. bad public policy
Everyone deserves a fair shake. Everyone deserves fair treatment. Read Section One of the Fourteenth Amendment. And, if anyone believes that I am a pimp or shill for affirmative action programs, rest assured I am not. To receive further assurances, reread the first two sentences of this paragraph
When it crosses the line to be bad public policy, you bet it is bad.Publishers said:
Everyone deserves a fair shake. Everyone deserves fair treatment. Read Section One of the Fourteenth Amendment. And, if anyone believes that I am a pimp or shill for affirmative action programs, rest assured I am not. To receive further assurances, reread the first two sentences of this paragraph
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Bobby,
I will definately post that press release when I write it. I wanted to share a couple of press releases that I wrote that have ended up being printed in several newspapers across the country. Keep in mind that they were written for the general public, not specifically pilots. I will post them separate, as they are each kind of long.
Kathy
I will definately post that press release when I write it. I wanted to share a couple of press releases that I wrote that have ended up being printed in several newspapers across the country. Keep in mind that they were written for the general public, not specifically pilots. I will post them separate, as they are each kind of long.
Kathy
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Press Release
Subtle Mistakes on Resumes Can Cost Candidates Interviews
Use of business contact information or cute email addresses can be the kiss of death
PRWEB) December 25, 2003, Phoenix, AZ -- Most job search candidates are aware of the common mistakes, such as typos and grammatical errors, which can make a big difference in getting called for an interview. However, most candidates are unaware of the subtle mistakes they are making, including placing personalized or company email addresses and company or cell phone numbers, on their resume. While some of these practices may seem harmless, there are valid reasons behind not putting this information on an employment search document.
“Many of my clients want to include their work email or phone numbers on their resume,” says Kathy Sweeney, president of The Write Resume, a Phoenix, Arizona based firm which specializes in resume writing and employment coaching for clients via the internet. “I advise against this, because the question a potential hiring manager may ask is whether a candidate will search for a job on their company’s time.”
Further, Sweeney points out that if a candidate does get a call from a potential employer on a company phone, the job seeker may be in a meeting with their boss or client, creating a very precarious situation.
“When a potential employer wants to contact a candidate, they are usually ready to either interview them by telephone in a screening phase or want to set up a formal meeting. They do not want to be put off by a job seeker who needs to call them back or cannot talk at the time,” says Sweeney. “The hiring manager only has a limited amount of time to speak to a potential employee and if the individual is unable to talk, they will go on to the next candidate.”
Job seekers also need to realize that including a cell phone number on their resume can cause just as many problems. First, the candidate will be at a disadvantage, because they may not have their resume in front of them to answer potential questions. In addition, they may be in a social situation, where once again they may not be able to speak at length to the employer.
Sweeney says the candidate should control the timing of the potential screening interview. The best way to ensure the interview happens on the candidates’ terms is to have a reliable home telephone number listed on their documents. If an employer calls, they will leave a message and the candidate can call them back when they are prepared and uninterrupted.
Sweeney also suggests that job seekers not allow their children to answer the telephone while searching for a new position. In addition, a professional telephone message system, with an appropriate outgoing message, is the key to an employer actually leaving a callback number.
“Many times individuals will have a cute message left by their child or a long, loud music selection on their answering machine. This will guarantee an employer will not leave a message,” Sweeney says with a chuckle.
The other common mistake candidates make is to have a “personalized” email address on their resume. Cute email addresses should not be used. Rather, a professional email address, such as the first and last name of the job seeker at the internet service provider address is the best guideline. Most internet service providers offer several email addresses per account. If a candidate does not have their own provider, free accounts are available from Yahoo and Hotmail.
If a candidate has a common name, like John Smith, they can still utilize their name, but perhaps use some numbers at the end. Sweeney warns not to use the year of birth as those numbers, as it could lead to age discrimination.
“I had a client once who wanted to use “GreatBootyBabe” as their email address on their resume,” Sweeney recalls. “I had to gently advise her that while it was fine to express her individualism to her friends, it was not professional and would send the wrong message to the employer.”
Using a company email address is also another kiss of death. Many companies have a strong email policy and violating those rules can get a candidate terminated from their current position.
By following these simple rules, Sweeney says that job seekers will portray a specific image to potential hiring managers, which in the long run, may communicate their professionalism.
Subtle Mistakes on Resumes Can Cost Candidates Interviews
Use of business contact information or cute email addresses can be the kiss of death
PRWEB) December 25, 2003, Phoenix, AZ -- Most job search candidates are aware of the common mistakes, such as typos and grammatical errors, which can make a big difference in getting called for an interview. However, most candidates are unaware of the subtle mistakes they are making, including placing personalized or company email addresses and company or cell phone numbers, on their resume. While some of these practices may seem harmless, there are valid reasons behind not putting this information on an employment search document.
“Many of my clients want to include their work email or phone numbers on their resume,” says Kathy Sweeney, president of The Write Resume, a Phoenix, Arizona based firm which specializes in resume writing and employment coaching for clients via the internet. “I advise against this, because the question a potential hiring manager may ask is whether a candidate will search for a job on their company’s time.”
Further, Sweeney points out that if a candidate does get a call from a potential employer on a company phone, the job seeker may be in a meeting with their boss or client, creating a very precarious situation.
“When a potential employer wants to contact a candidate, they are usually ready to either interview them by telephone in a screening phase or want to set up a formal meeting. They do not want to be put off by a job seeker who needs to call them back or cannot talk at the time,” says Sweeney. “The hiring manager only has a limited amount of time to speak to a potential employee and if the individual is unable to talk, they will go on to the next candidate.”
Job seekers also need to realize that including a cell phone number on their resume can cause just as many problems. First, the candidate will be at a disadvantage, because they may not have their resume in front of them to answer potential questions. In addition, they may be in a social situation, where once again they may not be able to speak at length to the employer.
Sweeney says the candidate should control the timing of the potential screening interview. The best way to ensure the interview happens on the candidates’ terms is to have a reliable home telephone number listed on their documents. If an employer calls, they will leave a message and the candidate can call them back when they are prepared and uninterrupted.
Sweeney also suggests that job seekers not allow their children to answer the telephone while searching for a new position. In addition, a professional telephone message system, with an appropriate outgoing message, is the key to an employer actually leaving a callback number.
“Many times individuals will have a cute message left by their child or a long, loud music selection on their answering machine. This will guarantee an employer will not leave a message,” Sweeney says with a chuckle.
The other common mistake candidates make is to have a “personalized” email address on their resume. Cute email addresses should not be used. Rather, a professional email address, such as the first and last name of the job seeker at the internet service provider address is the best guideline. Most internet service providers offer several email addresses per account. If a candidate does not have their own provider, free accounts are available from Yahoo and Hotmail.
If a candidate has a common name, like John Smith, they can still utilize their name, but perhaps use some numbers at the end. Sweeney warns not to use the year of birth as those numbers, as it could lead to age discrimination.
“I had a client once who wanted to use “GreatBootyBabe” as their email address on their resume,” Sweeney recalls. “I had to gently advise her that while it was fine to express her individualism to her friends, it was not professional and would send the wrong message to the employer.”
Using a company email address is also another kiss of death. Many companies have a strong email policy and violating those rules can get a candidate terminated from their current position.
By following these simple rules, Sweeney says that job seekers will portray a specific image to potential hiring managers, which in the long run, may communicate their professionalism.
Resume Writer
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Press Release #2
Staying at the Top of the Online Job Application Pile
Tips help job seekers make the most of internet job search
Phoenix, AZ (PRWEB) January 27, 2004 -- With numerous employers utilizing job search boards, in addition to proprietary company systems as the avenue for searching for employees, job search candidates need to understand how the systems are used by employers.
“Many job search candidates apply online to either job boards or corporate websites, but they really do not understand the technology behind the systems,” said Kathy Sweeney, president of The Write Resume, a resume writing and employment coaching firm, based in Phoenix, Arizona. “It is important to understand how employers search and what a candidate can do better to be at the top of the list of potential interviewees.”
According to Sweeney, there are two ways that employers can choose to search for candidates on job boards. They can either pay to search for candidates in the job board database or post an advertisement for an open position.
While conducting their search, employers can sort resumes received or conduct their search for candidates by geographic region, level of education or requirements of the position. In addition, when employers pay to only search a database of candidates, they can select an option that only includes candidates who have posted their resume in a certain amount of time, such as the past 30, 60, 90 or 180 days.
Sweeney says the most important aspects from a job candidate’s perspective are three-fold, with each being equally important.
First, the candidate must have “keywords” in their resume that match the industry in which they are seeking a job. Job boards rank candidates based upon ‘relevancy,’ meaning that the more terms the job seeker has in their resume that match the key words either posted in the employer ad or used by the employer searching in a particular industry, the higher they will rank in the list of candidates.
“If one candidate has five words on their resume and another candidate has only two words the employer is using in their ad, the individual with more words that match is going to show up higher on the list of resumes which the employer will review,” stated Sweeney.
Candidates do not need to have a “keywords” section on their resume, as many of the systems search throughout the entire document and will highlight the words as they appear. Sweeney warns, however, that the system may only search for present tense words, such as sales, instead of the word sold, so having both terms in the resume will be helpful.
Second, the job seeker must update their resume at least every thirty days in the system. Most employers will only search for candidates who have posted their resumes within the past 90 days, as they assume that a candidate whose resume was posted after that time may have already found another job. Updating the resume by adding a new training session or additional keywords will refresh the resume in the job board system and rank the candidate higher.
“If two candidates have the exact same keywords in their resume that the employer is searching for, the person who has updated their resume most recently will show up first,” said Sweeney.
Finally, job seekers also need to understand that some computer systems only read text formats. If candidates are posting their resume into the system with fancy bullets, lines, bold or underlining, it may kick their document out of the system. Sweeney says converting the resume to an ASCII text format is the best way to ensure that the resume will be compatible with all job search systems.
Staying at the Top of the Online Job Application Pile
Tips help job seekers make the most of internet job search
Phoenix, AZ (PRWEB) January 27, 2004 -- With numerous employers utilizing job search boards, in addition to proprietary company systems as the avenue for searching for employees, job search candidates need to understand how the systems are used by employers.
“Many job search candidates apply online to either job boards or corporate websites, but they really do not understand the technology behind the systems,” said Kathy Sweeney, president of The Write Resume, a resume writing and employment coaching firm, based in Phoenix, Arizona. “It is important to understand how employers search and what a candidate can do better to be at the top of the list of potential interviewees.”
According to Sweeney, there are two ways that employers can choose to search for candidates on job boards. They can either pay to search for candidates in the job board database or post an advertisement for an open position.
While conducting their search, employers can sort resumes received or conduct their search for candidates by geographic region, level of education or requirements of the position. In addition, when employers pay to only search a database of candidates, they can select an option that only includes candidates who have posted their resume in a certain amount of time, such as the past 30, 60, 90 or 180 days.
Sweeney says the most important aspects from a job candidate’s perspective are three-fold, with each being equally important.
First, the candidate must have “keywords” in their resume that match the industry in which they are seeking a job. Job boards rank candidates based upon ‘relevancy,’ meaning that the more terms the job seeker has in their resume that match the key words either posted in the employer ad or used by the employer searching in a particular industry, the higher they will rank in the list of candidates.
“If one candidate has five words on their resume and another candidate has only two words the employer is using in their ad, the individual with more words that match is going to show up higher on the list of resumes which the employer will review,” stated Sweeney.
Candidates do not need to have a “keywords” section on their resume, as many of the systems search throughout the entire document and will highlight the words as they appear. Sweeney warns, however, that the system may only search for present tense words, such as sales, instead of the word sold, so having both terms in the resume will be helpful.
Second, the job seeker must update their resume at least every thirty days in the system. Most employers will only search for candidates who have posted their resumes within the past 90 days, as they assume that a candidate whose resume was posted after that time may have already found another job. Updating the resume by adding a new training session or additional keywords will refresh the resume in the job board system and rank the candidate higher.
“If two candidates have the exact same keywords in their resume that the employer is searching for, the person who has updated their resume most recently will show up first,” said Sweeney.
Finally, job seekers also need to understand that some computer systems only read text formats. If candidates are posting their resume into the system with fancy bullets, lines, bold or underlining, it may kick their document out of the system. Sweeney says converting the resume to an ASCII text format is the best way to ensure that the resume will be compatible with all job search systems.
Resume Writer said:Rettofly - It can be definately argued either way. But then again, we have all seen some stupid things that management has done in the name of saving money!
Touche! Logic does seem to be a scarce commodity in many quarters. (Slapping myself in the head) That's why I left the hallowed halls of industry in the first place.
Publishers
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Bobby
Just where is that line.
I understand what makes nice public policy but where and who draws the lines. Who is to determine what a fair shake is? You tell me.
If I have Joe Shmoe as my chief pilot and he says he wants Ed and I think Tom would be better, I have to go with him because he is the guy I made responsible for the people under him.
We try in this country to legislate fairness and equality and it rarely works becuse ultimately, these things are decided by a person who brings all their prejudices and discriminations, and preferences, to the table with them.
If the company says you have to have a 737 type rating, you are obviously discriminating against those who do not have it. Must be a college grad, same thing, must be whatever is part and parcel of the program.
Human nature when questioned tries its best to sound logical. I bought the car because it had great gas milage and was structurally safe for my family. Maybe, but just as much chance that I thought I looked kool in it and I thought it was a neat car.
Which sounds more intelligent.
I picked Sam because he had 35 more hours than Bobby and he was 2 years younger, had more jet experience etc, or I just like Sam better than Bobby, have no idea why.
If you were not selected, chances are you feel it was unfair, you were just as qualified.
Kathy has a bunch of good points and having seen the horrors up close and personal, she did not even start to address the basic errors. Nevertheless, sooner or later, it boils down to I liked this guy or lady better because at the end, we always have more than one qualified candidate.
Just where is that line.
I understand what makes nice public policy but where and who draws the lines. Who is to determine what a fair shake is? You tell me.
If I have Joe Shmoe as my chief pilot and he says he wants Ed and I think Tom would be better, I have to go with him because he is the guy I made responsible for the people under him.
We try in this country to legislate fairness and equality and it rarely works becuse ultimately, these things are decided by a person who brings all their prejudices and discriminations, and preferences, to the table with them.
If the company says you have to have a 737 type rating, you are obviously discriminating against those who do not have it. Must be a college grad, same thing, must be whatever is part and parcel of the program.
Human nature when questioned tries its best to sound logical. I bought the car because it had great gas milage and was structurally safe for my family. Maybe, but just as much chance that I thought I looked kool in it and I thought it was a neat car.
Which sounds more intelligent.
I picked Sam because he had 35 more hours than Bobby and he was 2 years younger, had more jet experience etc, or I just like Sam better than Bobby, have no idea why.
If you were not selected, chances are you feel it was unfair, you were just as qualified.
Kathy has a bunch of good points and having seen the horrors up close and personal, she did not even start to address the basic errors. Nevertheless, sooner or later, it boils down to I liked this guy or lady better because at the end, we always have more than one qualified candidate.
bobbysamd
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Public policy and institutionalized discrimination
"WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness . . . ."
(emphasis added)
The Fourteenth Amendment, cited above, is just one of several efforts to further define and clarify fair treatment. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967, civil rights legislation, and, yes, affirmative action legislation, are other efforts.
Freedom and equality are the underpinnings of our system. Thus, we, as Americans, expect fair treatment. When there are blatant institutionalized discriminatory practices, there is no fair treatment, and the line is crossed. Plain and simple.
(I recall a case from years ago where a pilot who underwent a sex change operation lost his/her job and sued to get it back.)
I have made my case above about age discrimination existing in pilot hiring.
Okay. "Nice" is a non-starter. To define "fair treatment," for openers, here is a quote from the preamble to the Declaration of Independence:Publishers said:
"WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness . . . ."
(emphasis added)
The Fourteenth Amendment, cited above, is just one of several efforts to further define and clarify fair treatment. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967, civil rights legislation, and, yes, affirmative action legislation, are other efforts.
Freedom and equality are the underpinnings of our system. Thus, we, as Americans, expect fair treatment. When there are blatant institutionalized discriminatory practices, there is no fair treatment, and the line is crossed. Plain and simple.
Thus, if Joe Shmoe simply doesn't like women pilots, or older pilots, or black pilots, or Hispanic pilots et al, that is institutionalized discrimination.
C'mon, Pub, you know it's not the same. That is not discrimination. Anyone can avail themselves of 737 type ratings and college. No one can roll back age or change their skin color. I know at least one person who has lied about his heritage. Changing sex? Wellllll . . . . . .
(I recall a case from years ago where a pilot who underwent a sex change operation lost his/her job and sued to get it back.)
Of course. In this instance, there isn't much difference between Sam and Bobby. But if all the Sams are much younger than all the Bobbys, or all the Bobbys are women, etc., and all the Bobbys are being shunned in favor of the Sams, that is patently unfair, and discriminatory.
But if you impose an illegal and/or unfair bias on any candidate, you have committed discrimination.
I have made my case above about age discrimination existing in pilot hiring.
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Resume Writer
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Resume Writer
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Publishers
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Bobby
My point is that you are right, just not the reality. We have a bunch of laws and rules in this country. That does not mean that we follow them any more than a terrorist is going to obey a no fly rule about a stadium.
Kathy,
The things that you pointed out about the cute email addresses, etc. are true and the things that a professional would spot that others may not have thought of.
What I see all the time is because it is so easy to email, many re not taking the time to customize their qualifications so that they stand out for a particular job.
Secondly, how many people do not show they have a clue about the company they are applying to.
Objectives-- hom many resumes does a corporate flight department get where the objective stated is to work for a major or regional airline.
How many take the time to high light the qualifications that really fit the particular job at the company they are applying to, If I am looking for a type rated B737 guy, if I was applying I think that would stand out on my resume like a sore thumb. It would scream i have that critical qualification.
One basic rule-- if you cannot spell it, I am not going to let you fly it. Typo's etc are ok for these boards, we are all trying to type as quick as possible, but on a resume have the capitalization correct and the words spelled right.
I used to play a game at some of the AEPS job fairs where there were long lines. I would look at someone's resume in line and ask them how many people in front of them did they think exceded their time and ratings. Most were shocked when they saw how many qualified people were there in front of them.
Show me you took the time to find out about us. Feel free to let me know how much you really want the opportunity. Realize that either youhave to sell me in a face to face, or that piece of paper does.
If that piece of paper does not look like you took the time to really check it, then you probably are not going to take the tie to check my aircraft or the paper work that keeps it current.
My point is that you are right, just not the reality. We have a bunch of laws and rules in this country. That does not mean that we follow them any more than a terrorist is going to obey a no fly rule about a stadium.
Kathy,
The things that you pointed out about the cute email addresses, etc. are true and the things that a professional would spot that others may not have thought of.
What I see all the time is because it is so easy to email, many re not taking the time to customize their qualifications so that they stand out for a particular job.
Secondly, how many people do not show they have a clue about the company they are applying to.
Objectives-- hom many resumes does a corporate flight department get where the objective stated is to work for a major or regional airline.
How many take the time to high light the qualifications that really fit the particular job at the company they are applying to, If I am looking for a type rated B737 guy, if I was applying I think that would stand out on my resume like a sore thumb. It would scream i have that critical qualification.
One basic rule-- if you cannot spell it, I am not going to let you fly it. Typo's etc are ok for these boards, we are all trying to type as quick as possible, but on a resume have the capitalization correct and the words spelled right.
I used to play a game at some of the AEPS job fairs where there were long lines. I would look at someone's resume in line and ask them how many people in front of them did they think exceded their time and ratings. Most were shocked when they saw how many qualified people were there in front of them.
Show me you took the time to find out about us. Feel free to let me know how much you really want the opportunity. Realize that either youhave to sell me in a face to face, or that piece of paper does.
If that piece of paper does not look like you took the time to really check it, then you probably are not going to take the tie to check my aircraft or the paper work that keeps it current.
b757driver
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Even that doesn't necessarily work
Publisher,
Thanks for all the insight about the basics. I agree there are plenty out there as you described.
However, every single point you mentioned, I have been doing for months, if not years. I ONLY apply to those companies where I either meet (usually exceed) their minimum requirements. I ALWAYS customize the resume with a clearly defined objective, do the research on the company to the point I know exactly what is involved in the interview proces, emphasize my qualifications in terms of type ratings and actual experience (I don't buy typoe ratings on aircraft where I have no time - that is a complete waste of money IMHO).
Also, I am pretty sure that those of us that have been in the industry for some time know all about how to present their credentials. Perhaps the "bad" resumes you get are from those younger, low-time, not-yet-focused folks. The very people that are being favored at the expense of the more mature, experienced, stable pilots. Maybe if your company were a little more open-minded and flexible, you would be able to find your ideal employee that my quicker and save both time and money in the process.
So, you can see I spend quite a bit of time making the resume "fit" the particular company. Then I do the same with the cover letter. Unfortunately, in my case, non of these "basic" steps works - so, there must be something else, right? Whether it be a discimination of some kind perhaps, who knows. You get no feedback and/or response, so you can only assume. I have even tried to put myself in the other person's shoes to try figure it out but it does not matter.
The best analogy I can come up with is that you cannot solve an equation if you do not have the numbers to substitute into the equation. Likewise, we always suspected that there is a certain amount of "discrimination" going around. Now, we know the extent of that and also know, that is reality. That it itself, does not make it right. It basically denigrates the whole selection system and becomes self-defeating. When personal biases start coming into the picture that affect otherwise qualified and able candidates, it directly reflects on the company. In effect, what you end up with are a bunch of clones, no diversity, no enrichment. That is certainly not the way forward.
bobbysamd is absolutely right when he talks about discrimination in selection not being the same as being type rated in a paricular aircraft or having a college degree. We are talking about the other form of discrimination! Requiring you to have certain criteria for a job is about challenges that most people can meet if they apply themselves. However, you cannot change your age, background, work history etc. And when decisions are made on these factors instead of the others, then there is no question that it is plain old-fashioned discrimination and a violation of the current law.
What some of us on this thread are saying is that under the guise of "competition" and "we are inundated", some employers are playing a very different game at the expense of people's hopes and dreams. I sometimes wonder whatever happend to honesty, integrity and fairness. I though that was what America was all about and set us apart from the rest of the world. Perhaps, that was the dream, not the job.......
Publisher,
Thanks for all the insight about the basics. I agree there are plenty out there as you described.
However, every single point you mentioned, I have been doing for months, if not years. I ONLY apply to those companies where I either meet (usually exceed) their minimum requirements. I ALWAYS customize the resume with a clearly defined objective, do the research on the company to the point I know exactly what is involved in the interview proces, emphasize my qualifications in terms of type ratings and actual experience (I don't buy typoe ratings on aircraft where I have no time - that is a complete waste of money IMHO).
Also, I am pretty sure that those of us that have been in the industry for some time know all about how to present their credentials. Perhaps the "bad" resumes you get are from those younger, low-time, not-yet-focused folks. The very people that are being favored at the expense of the more mature, experienced, stable pilots. Maybe if your company were a little more open-minded and flexible, you would be able to find your ideal employee that my quicker and save both time and money in the process.
So, you can see I spend quite a bit of time making the resume "fit" the particular company. Then I do the same with the cover letter. Unfortunately, in my case, non of these "basic" steps works - so, there must be something else, right? Whether it be a discimination of some kind perhaps, who knows. You get no feedback and/or response, so you can only assume. I have even tried to put myself in the other person's shoes to try figure it out but it does not matter.
The best analogy I can come up with is that you cannot solve an equation if you do not have the numbers to substitute into the equation. Likewise, we always suspected that there is a certain amount of "discrimination" going around. Now, we know the extent of that and also know, that is reality. That it itself, does not make it right. It basically denigrates the whole selection system and becomes self-defeating. When personal biases start coming into the picture that affect otherwise qualified and able candidates, it directly reflects on the company. In effect, what you end up with are a bunch of clones, no diversity, no enrichment. That is certainly not the way forward.
bobbysamd is absolutely right when he talks about discrimination in selection not being the same as being type rated in a paricular aircraft or having a college degree. We are talking about the other form of discrimination! Requiring you to have certain criteria for a job is about challenges that most people can meet if they apply themselves. However, you cannot change your age, background, work history etc. And when decisions are made on these factors instead of the others, then there is no question that it is plain old-fashioned discrimination and a violation of the current law.
What some of us on this thread are saying is that under the guise of "competition" and "we are inundated", some employers are playing a very different game at the expense of people's hopes and dreams. I sometimes wonder whatever happend to honesty, integrity and fairness. I though that was what America was all about and set us apart from the rest of the world. Perhaps, that was the dream, not the job.......
Publishers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,736
Agree
I agree with you and am certainly empathetic.
There are some cases where i did get resumes from people with experience and which were filled out well. Some of them though gave the impression --here I am , I have 1200000 hours and have flown every kind of aircarft Boeing makes, you should hire me.
I had one retiring AA pilot tell me how demanding he was ( jet over a certain weight class, efis, etc)but he was worth it. 80000000 hours accident free, marine background, etc etc. I was impressed as I could be, I made the shot at my circular file from all the way across the room.
The fact is that every situation is different, every hire different, and you can go nuts trying to figure it out. I saw a furlough date of September 14 and the appoximate age and figured this person is not going to make it back to XX airline. His age was an advantage that day.
There is another older aircraft driver who calls me every once in awhile. I would love to hire this individual. Why, I have no idea except that we had an interesting telephone visit one day. He did not have time in the aircraft I needed, was not geographically desireable, was not age desirable, had nothing going for him except I want to find a place for him.
I had another older pilot with school age kids who was willing to commute or live in a crash pad while his wife and kids were miles away. I did not consider him because I knew where his mind would be--- at home 200 miles away with his kids.
Is there age discrimination, yes. Is there a discounting of competent pilots with airlines on their resumes. ABsolutely.
Do I think that a guy who has been captain of a Boeing with a good carrier is a prospect for employment in a 135 on demand charter company, not really. Would they be happy, probably not.
Anyone involved in hiring that does not admit all those factors play a part is lying.
I agree with you and am certainly empathetic.
There are some cases where i did get resumes from people with experience and which were filled out well. Some of them though gave the impression --here I am , I have 1200000 hours and have flown every kind of aircarft Boeing makes, you should hire me.
I had one retiring AA pilot tell me how demanding he was ( jet over a certain weight class, efis, etc)but he was worth it. 80000000 hours accident free, marine background, etc etc. I was impressed as I could be, I made the shot at my circular file from all the way across the room.
The fact is that every situation is different, every hire different, and you can go nuts trying to figure it out. I saw a furlough date of September 14 and the appoximate age and figured this person is not going to make it back to XX airline. His age was an advantage that day.
There is another older aircraft driver who calls me every once in awhile. I would love to hire this individual. Why, I have no idea except that we had an interesting telephone visit one day. He did not have time in the aircraft I needed, was not geographically desireable, was not age desirable, had nothing going for him except I want to find a place for him.
I had another older pilot with school age kids who was willing to commute or live in a crash pad while his wife and kids were miles away. I did not consider him because I knew where his mind would be--- at home 200 miles away with his kids.
Is there age discrimination, yes. Is there a discounting of competent pilots with airlines on their resumes. ABsolutely.
Do I think that a guy who has been captain of a Boeing with a good carrier is a prospect for employment in a 135 on demand charter company, not really. Would they be happy, probably not.
Anyone involved in hiring that does not admit all those factors play a part is lying.
b757driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2002
- Posts
- 436
Thanks for being so candid.
By bringing it out in the open you have confirmed what a lot of people have suspected for some time. Now that they really know where they stand, perhaps they will not waste your time (or theirs!) and move on to where their skills might warrant a second look. That in itself is progress and a win-win for both sides, wouldn't you say?
You are spot on that EVERY hire is a unique situation. All that I and others have been saying is not everyone gets a fair crack of the whip to get the interview and either shine or make a complete a$%^&* out of oneself! Interestingly, in many overseas countries, if you meet the numbers game, you are pretty much "guaranteed" an interview. Then that is your chance to prove yourself, win or lose. The emphais is completely different. Not saying that we should do exactly the same but just an observation. Last time I looked, they seemed to have a pretty good success rate in both training and subsequent retention of new hires.
What it boils down to is simple market forces of supply and demand. The dynamics change completely as the economy swings around and the people that are able to adapt to these timings, are ultimately the ones who are successful.
ex-757driver
By bringing it out in the open you have confirmed what a lot of people have suspected for some time. Now that they really know where they stand, perhaps they will not waste your time (or theirs!) and move on to where their skills might warrant a second look. That in itself is progress and a win-win for both sides, wouldn't you say?
You are spot on that EVERY hire is a unique situation. All that I and others have been saying is not everyone gets a fair crack of the whip to get the interview and either shine or make a complete a$%^&* out of oneself! Interestingly, in many overseas countries, if you meet the numbers game, you are pretty much "guaranteed" an interview. Then that is your chance to prove yourself, win or lose. The emphais is completely different. Not saying that we should do exactly the same but just an observation. Last time I looked, they seemed to have a pretty good success rate in both training and subsequent retention of new hires.
What it boils down to is simple market forces of supply and demand. The dynamics change completely as the economy swings around and the people that are able to adapt to these timings, are ultimately the ones who are successful.
ex-757driver
Resume Writer
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2004
- Posts
- 1,121
Re: Publishers
Publishers,
I definately agree with you on the points you brought up. I posted only two press releases on the board, and frankly, those go to newswriters, so they have to be very brief.
I have another press release that I can post on here on the Top 6 Mistakes Job Seekers Make When Applying for positions.
I always tell my clients to add something into their cover letter about the company and to do research. I prefer with most of my clients not to do an "Objective", (unless they do not have a great deal of experience) but instead I do a "Profile" or "Summary of Qualifications" on their resume. I explain that an objective says, "This is what I want," while a profile says, "This is what I have to offer." Two very different ways of going about things, one of which comes from a position of confidence.
In addition, no two resumes are alike. Even with my pilot clients, I may have very different things to say about each of them, depending upon the avenue they want to take.
I teach people how to work career fairs through seminars that I do for a local job board company here in Phoenix. I teach them how to have a 30 second commercial prepared, how to shake hands (this is very important) and how to present their credentials. While this may sound like common sense, you would be amazed at how many people have no idea how to approach an employer.
I also agree with knowing to whom you are applying. When I did hiring, I cannot tell you how many people said the company name wrong! Do research on every company you want to work for!
Kathy
Publishers said:
Publishers,
I definately agree with you on the points you brought up. I posted only two press releases on the board, and frankly, those go to newswriters, so they have to be very brief.
I have another press release that I can post on here on the Top 6 Mistakes Job Seekers Make When Applying for positions.
I always tell my clients to add something into their cover letter about the company and to do research. I prefer with most of my clients not to do an "Objective", (unless they do not have a great deal of experience) but instead I do a "Profile" or "Summary of Qualifications" on their resume. I explain that an objective says, "This is what I want," while a profile says, "This is what I have to offer." Two very different ways of going about things, one of which comes from a position of confidence.
In addition, no two resumes are alike. Even with my pilot clients, I may have very different things to say about each of them, depending upon the avenue they want to take.
I teach people how to work career fairs through seminars that I do for a local job board company here in Phoenix. I teach them how to have a 30 second commercial prepared, how to shake hands (this is very important) and how to present their credentials. While this may sound like common sense, you would be amazed at how many people have no idea how to approach an employer.
I also agree with knowing to whom you are applying. When I did hiring, I cannot tell you how many people said the company name wrong! Do research on every company you want to work for!
Kathy
Resume Writer
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2004
- Posts
- 1,121
Another Press Release
Here is the press release that was sent out in January about mistakes people make.
__________________________
Top Six Mistakes Job Candidates Make When Searching for a New Job
Understanding the job search game can result in more qualified interviews
January 7 2004 Phoenix, AZ--Job seekers looking for a new position in 2004 should be aware of the most common mistakes made in conducting a job search. Knowing the "rules of the job search game" can help candidates be more successful in their efforts.
"When clients come to me searching for a new job, I spend a great deal of time not only preparing their resume, but also educating them on the job search process," said Kathy Sweeney, a Certified Professional Resume Writer and president of The Write Resume in Phoenix, Arizona. "I always want to make sure they understand how a successful job search is conducted."
According to Sweeney, the top six mistakes made are:
1) Sending unsolicited resumes. Most employers have a policy against accepting unsolicited resumes. They simply do not have the room to keep these resumes on file. If the candidate has a contact within a company, then walking in a resume that meets the qualifications of an upcoming position may be acceptable.
2) Ineffective networking. Networking is not about asking friends or neighbors if they have any “openings” at their company. Networking is about building lasting relationships with individuals in a certain industry. Networking is a two way street – you have to give to receive. Sweeney says that candidates should make a name for themselves, but they should be “famous, not infamous.”
3) Using an ineffective objective on the resume. Most candidates put a broad objective statement on their resume hoping to land “any job.” A better approach is to use a “profile” or “summary of qualifications” on the resume. The benefits are two-fold; a summary tells the employer what hard skills are possessed and also offers an opportunity to place “keywords” in the resume, which are searched by computer job management programs.
4) Applying to every type of job - no matter what it is. More recruiters and hiring managers are receiving resumes from candidates who are not qualified for positions. This is a waste of time and effort on the part of the jobseeker. If the candidate is not qualified for the job, he/she will not get a call. Instead, candidates should focus on the type of work they would like to do and then go after that position, getting the training or education necessary to meet the qualifications.
5) Being unprepared for the interview. Many candidates do not perform thorough research on the company prior to the interview. Research can be done on the internet or at the public library. Knowing information about the company and key products or services will give the candidate a competitive advantage in the interview process.
6) Not following up after the interview. Countless job seekers never follow up with the employer after the interview. Sending a personalized letter, thanking the interviewer for their time, in addition to reiterating interest in the position, should be mandatory. Get the business card of the hiring manager to ensure the letter is addressed to the correct person. If a candidate really wants the position, impress the interviewer by sending the letter FedEx.
Sweeney, who has conducted several hundred job search and interview preparation seminars, in addition to serving as the career expert for numerous internet based job search boards, said the most common mistakes that job seekers make can be corrected if they take the time to educate themselves on the job search process.
Here is the press release that was sent out in January about mistakes people make.
__________________________
Top Six Mistakes Job Candidates Make When Searching for a New Job
Understanding the job search game can result in more qualified interviews
January 7 2004 Phoenix, AZ--Job seekers looking for a new position in 2004 should be aware of the most common mistakes made in conducting a job search. Knowing the "rules of the job search game" can help candidates be more successful in their efforts.
"When clients come to me searching for a new job, I spend a great deal of time not only preparing their resume, but also educating them on the job search process," said Kathy Sweeney, a Certified Professional Resume Writer and president of The Write Resume in Phoenix, Arizona. "I always want to make sure they understand how a successful job search is conducted."
According to Sweeney, the top six mistakes made are:
1) Sending unsolicited resumes. Most employers have a policy against accepting unsolicited resumes. They simply do not have the room to keep these resumes on file. If the candidate has a contact within a company, then walking in a resume that meets the qualifications of an upcoming position may be acceptable.
2) Ineffective networking. Networking is not about asking friends or neighbors if they have any “openings” at their company. Networking is about building lasting relationships with individuals in a certain industry. Networking is a two way street – you have to give to receive. Sweeney says that candidates should make a name for themselves, but they should be “famous, not infamous.”
3) Using an ineffective objective on the resume. Most candidates put a broad objective statement on their resume hoping to land “any job.” A better approach is to use a “profile” or “summary of qualifications” on the resume. The benefits are two-fold; a summary tells the employer what hard skills are possessed and also offers an opportunity to place “keywords” in the resume, which are searched by computer job management programs.
4) Applying to every type of job - no matter what it is. More recruiters and hiring managers are receiving resumes from candidates who are not qualified for positions. This is a waste of time and effort on the part of the jobseeker. If the candidate is not qualified for the job, he/she will not get a call. Instead, candidates should focus on the type of work they would like to do and then go after that position, getting the training or education necessary to meet the qualifications.
5) Being unprepared for the interview. Many candidates do not perform thorough research on the company prior to the interview. Research can be done on the internet or at the public library. Knowing information about the company and key products or services will give the candidate a competitive advantage in the interview process.
6) Not following up after the interview. Countless job seekers never follow up with the employer after the interview. Sending a personalized letter, thanking the interviewer for their time, in addition to reiterating interest in the position, should be mandatory. Get the business card of the hiring manager to ensure the letter is addressed to the correct person. If a candidate really wants the position, impress the interviewer by sending the letter FedEx.
Sweeney, who has conducted several hundred job search and interview preparation seminars, in addition to serving as the career expert for numerous internet based job search boards, said the most common mistakes that job seekers make can be corrected if they take the time to educate themselves on the job search process.
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