International layovers

[linecheck]

For the pilots out there who are flying international trips: how long are your typical layovers, both contractually and in the actual scheduled operation? If you don't mind in your response, could you write which carrier and aircraft type you're with to provide an accurate comparison?

Thanks- :beer:

 

[ATRCA]

I don't think I've ever had a layover in Europe less than about 25 hrs. South America and the Caribbean not so. Some of the layovers in Europe are 2 days or more in the winter.

CAL

Why do you ask?

 

[linecheck]

Thanks... the reason I ask is that my present employer is running us fairly ragged due to a significant shortage of pilots. Yes, the pilot shortage has arrived, and it can be seen right here in Asia. Our average trip begins late in the evening, with about 10hrs of duty, followed by about 24hrs off, and then departing again on the inbound. Basically, a red-eye flip/flop. Occasionally, we'll duty-on at midnight, get in at 7am, 12hrs off, then another midnight duty followed by 24hrs off, and then finally depart on the early morning inbound arrival. That, in and of itself isn't bad, but we do these kind of trips back to back, continuously, with no time to recover in between. The word 'zombie' now carries new meaning.

So I'm just trying to get some perspective as to how other international carriers are scheduling their pilots- that's all.

Thanks again for the info-

 

[Dan Roman]

Out of HNL to Asia/Australia generally an afternoon departure with about 25 hours than a red eye home. First class seat and a bunk below for crew rest.
Up to 18 days off. As with any type of flying, healthy food, some excersise pay good dividends as well as not too much alcohol. Talk to a good holistic medical practioner about melatonin to find the right dose may help and be very leery of Ambian.
HAL. A330

 

[Andy]

I'm new to L-CAL's system and junior reserve. I've been aggessively picking up trips so that I have control over my schedule. I've picked up a few trips with Caribbean layovers.

Glancing through my logbook:
SJU (San Juan) - 15 hr layover
BQN (Aguadilla, Puerto Rico) - 25 1/2 hr layover
POS (Port of Spain, Trinidad) - 27 hr layover

I've looked at other trips to Caribbean/Mexico/Latin America and they all seem to have ~24 hr layovers.

This is on the 737.


I've never had a problem feeling fatigued with the type of flying you're describing but different strokes for different folks.

 

[ATRCA]

Andy, bid the 756! Reserve life is far better on the 75.

 

[SWA Bubba]

I just fly six legs per day, everyday, then end up in Lubbock for 14 hours, and then do it again the next day. Southwest, 737.

Wait... does LBB count as international?...

Bubba

 

[waveflyer]

I remember those 26 hour layovers- completely flipping your body clock in one day....
Ouch

 

[Andy]

Andy, bid the 756! Reserve life is far better on the 75.

My big problem is my commute. Since I live in TUS (wife finishing up her military career), my best choice of domiciles is LAX. There are 11 daily nonstops TUS-LAX while there are only 3 nonstops TUS-IAH.

I don't see getting a 756 to LAX any time soon but 737 is possible. A more convenient commute will improve my QOL dramatically.

 

[AA717driver]

Wait... does LBB count as international?...

Bubba

No, but McAllen and ELP do...


TC

 

[waveflyer]

This is a good thread for this question too-

How do other airlines handle manning in far away destinations- swa is implementing an imbedded reserve day in a long layover- and when discussing it- very few of my peers knew how other airlines handle hawaii and other isolated destinations-
How do you deal with sick calls when a base is so far away?

 

[Jim]

This is a good thread for this question too-

How do other airlines handle manning in far away destinations- swa is implementing an imbedded reserve day in a long layover- and when discussing it- very few of my peers knew how other airlines handle hawaii and other isolated destinations-
How do you deal with sick calls when a base is so far away?

Now that's raising the bar....... When other airline managements hear of this, they're all going to demand the same.

They fly someone in and the flight may get delayed. It rarely happens at my airline so it is not a big deal.

 

[777forever]

Does DAL have any Caribbean layovers? I know UNICAL has a lot

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[General Lee]

Does DAL have any Caribbean layovers? I know UNICAL has a lot

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Yes, San Juan, St Thomas, Santo Domingo, Santiago (DR), Aruba, St Lucia, Barbados, Montego Bay, Greneda, and Port of Spain. There is also a junior trip to Georgetown, Guyana from JFK, and other South America layovers. The MD88 has layovers in Cancun and turns to Punta Cana, Roatan, Grand Cayman, Nassau, St Croix, and Belize City. The 737 and A320 have several turns to Central America, and also very senior turns to places like St Kitts that have double crews since the turn is over 8 hours round trip. So, DH one way down or back, and get 9 hours pay in one day. Not bad, and very senior. One senior 737 FO I talked to said he does those on the weekend, and during the week he is a math teacher, which he really enjoys.


Most INTL destinations at DL have nice hotels and a long layover. If you are on the 75/76 fleet, you can see Europe, South America, and Asia. It's called variety, something Wave has never really seen. He's not used to one leg a day to a nice layover and meal. And, get this, if INTL flying turns out to be tough for you, you can actually bid back to domestic only, or fly a fleet that offers BOTH. Amazing! Wave and Red can have beers in Lubbutocks and dream of variety, and someday maybe Hawaii if they ever get around to it. In the meantime, hopefully they finally have mastered both VNAV and auto throttles.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Jesus, you guys can't help but bash Swa every chance-
Hey GL, guess what?
I've done your job...

 

[SLUF4]

It isn't all of us, waveflyer. on the original topic at DL 767 most Europe is either a 25 hr or 42 or so hour layover. I have seen some Africa layovers over 100 hours, but I think that's a rare thing you'd get on reserve maybe. Personally I like the Int'l trips-sleep 1/3 of the trip, get a nice meal, and it's commutable on both sides usually

 

[General Lee]

Jesus, you guys can't help but bash Swa every chance-
Hey GL, guess what?
I've done your job...

No, if you did, you'd still be doing it. It is that great. Instead, you moved on and now maybe have regrets, or envy. It's obvious and sad. Regardless, just keep your chin up and fly your 5 legger tomorrow and enjoy every minute of it, especially the ISP layover in Ronkonkoma. Somebody has to.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Back on topic, the West Coast and MSP/DTW 767ER guys do short and long (up to 12 days worth 80 or so hours) Asia trips, and I've seen some that have 99 hour layovers at an island south of Guam, from Tokyo. Some of those guys told me there is a great resort there, and some downed Japanese Zeros nearby in the water to scuba dive or snorkel around. I haven't seen that layover in the ATL base yet.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[say again]

No, if you did, you'd still be doing it. It is that great. Instead, you moved on and now maybe have regrets, or envy. It's obvious and sad. Regardless, just keep your chin up and fly your 5 legger tomorrow and enjoy every minute of it, especially the ISP layover in Ronkonkoma. Somebody has to.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Where do you get your sad reality that all pilots want to fly internationally? Great benefits and pay will allow them to do that, on vacation, with their family. To me, that is more desirable. Yes, I do int'l, but enjoy the short 2 hr hops way more.

 

[Jim]

Jesus, you guys can't help but bash Swa every chance- .

wave flyer,

You've been bashing every other airline as being inferior to SWA and standing on your moral pedestal. How can accepting having your layover turned into a reserve period be acceptable in any way? You rant and rave about how great your company is yet this is the type of concession that lowers the bar for every airline pilot.

 

[igneousy2]

This is a good thread for this question too-

How do other airlines handle manning in far away destinations- swa is implementing an imbedded reserve day in a long layover- and when discussing it- very few of my peers knew how other airlines handle hawaii and other isolated destinations-
How do you deal with sick calls when a base is so far away?

As far as I know, line holders cannot be made to sit reserve at all US major airlines (traditional-major...not technical-major). Nor, are reserves allowed to be made to sit reserve out of base. At Alaska, I suppose they could technically re-assign a line-holder to the flight, but they have to get a hold of you before you get a beer and in time for you to get proper rest... not very likely especially since if a pilot fatigued right before departure (a high probability with these reassignments) it would just make a bad situation worse. The pilot wouldn't lose any money in pay, get a hotel room for 9 hours and then would get a first class ticket home on the next flight. I think there are pilots that live in Hawaii that would do it for JM pay (150%) to commute to work, which is why I think we still don't have a Hawaii base. Everytime i've heard of a sick call in Hawaii, they have simply delayed the flight until a reserve was flown in from the mainland. That being said, although most pilots at Alaska wouldn't hesitate to call in sick when sick, nobody here wants to see the company fail, so I think last minute sick calls are pretty rare, most of us give ample notice of being sick in Hawaii-in the van to the hotel for 24 hours notice I think is normal.

Good luck...I better not see you on hear taking shots at DAL guys if you guys 'cave' on this one.

 

[waveflyer]

General-
I'm glad you like your job.
Me too. No regrets on any choices I've made.
I strongly disagree with the choices DALPA has made.
I won't say I didn't enjoy international flying when I did it (not at a legacy- and I can only imagine its even better at delta) but I wouldn't be a part of outsourcing any longer.
But keep thinking everyone is jealous. I'm not remotely jealous. As I imagine you are not remotely jealous of me- even though I'm pretty darn happy too brother

 

[waveflyer]

Oh please
You guys are equating the details of a reserve rule we're still debating, that I haven't given enough information for you to understand WITH the wholesale outsourcing of hundreds of modern jets ....? Gmafb-

 

[GogglesPisano]

Jesus, you guys can't help but bash Swa every chance-
.

You're kidding, right?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=149609

 

[linecheck]

Sarcastic bravado aside, thanks for the posts everyone... I suppose there are 'flip-flops', and there are 'flip-flops'. A report at 9am, followed by an 8 hr flight, get's one at the destination by 6pm. 24hrs later, the pilot departs at, say, 8pm and lands at 4am. Certainly tiring on the second leg, but with some coffee and perhaps an inflight rest, not an impossible task to achieve.

By contrast, a pilot who reports at 11pm, arrives at 7am, and then the next day, 24 hrs later, departs at 9am and flies until 5pm, is experiencing a greater circadian reversal than the pilot who is operating the first trip.

So the end result, perhaps, is the pilot flying the second trip is more fatigued than the pilot flying the first, despite there being the same amount of rest in between.

I love it when managers say, 'but you had 24hrs rest... Why aren't you rested?'... yea right.

Then add a commute on top of all this, and the stage is set for long term health problems due to chronic fatigue- not to mention flight safety issues due to subpar pilot performance.

 

[Dan Roman]

As far as I know, line holders cannot be made to sit reserve at all US major airlines (traditional-major...not technical-major). Nor, are reserves allowed to be made to sit reserve out of base. At Alaska, I suppose they could technically re-assign a line-holder to the flight, but they have to get a hold of you before you get a beer and in time for you to get proper rest... not very likely especially since if a pilot fatigued right before departure (a high probability with these reassignments) it would just make a bad situation worse. The pilot wouldn't lose any money in pay, get a hotel room for 9 hours and then would get a first class ticket home on the next flight. I think there are pilots that live in Hawaii that would do it for JM pay (150%) to commute to work, which is why I think we still don't have a Hawaii base. Everytime i've heard of a sick call in Hawaii, they have simply delayed the flight until a reserve was flown in from the mainland. That being said, although most pilots at Alaska wouldn't hesitate to call in sick when sick, nobody here wants to see the company fail, so I think last minute sick calls are pretty rare, most of us give ample notice of being sick in Hawaii-in the van to the hotel for 24 hours notice I think is normal.

Good luck...I better not see you on hear taking shots at DAL guys if you guys 'cave' on this one.

Similar situation at Hawaiian except our crews layover in multiple destinations along the west coast. Pretty rare for someone to get sick and can't fly home, but the options would be to draw from the small 767 base with a couple reserves in SEA or fly someone in. Airbus trips obviously would have to wait for someone to be flown in. Again, very rare, pilots on layover are more reliable than airplanes, they want to go home and the chances of getting sick are pretty slim. We have quite a few crews who snowboard or ski on the PDX layover, even that's never caused a problem, knock wood!
Not sure why SWA would think they need to actually have crews sit "reserve" to cover flights in Hawaii. Airlines have numerous flights to Europe, they don't tell their crews to be ready to cover for anyone who might get sick, several airlines have a lot of crews in Asia, nobody sits around available on a layover if someone gets sick out there. It just doesn't happen that often and if it does it gets dealt with in whatever creative way scheduling and willing crews can do. But again it is a lot rarer than a mechanical breakdown.
If SWAPA went for that be prepared for getting a lot of flack for it, deservedly so I might add.

 

[Dan Roman]

Geez, I'm slipping, that would certainly be an over the top use of that "warrior Spirit"!.......... Sitting around on a layover in Hawaii waiting to cover if someone gets sick.

 

[Jim]

Geez, I'm slipping, that would certainly be an over the top use of that "warrior Spirit"!.......... Sitting around on a layover in Hawaii waiting to cover if someone gets sick.

It's okay, Kool-aid has no alcohol so they can still drink it while on reserve.....

 

[FO 4 Life]

While not necessarily a fair comparison due to the flying, there are several lengths at brown.

24-96 hr in WAW, CGN, HKG
24-102 hr HNL
24-72 hr PVG, NRT, TPE
24-48 hr ALA, DXB, SYD, SZX

Typically you'll get at least 24 hours, usually more. There are a few times it may be in the 15-17 hour range if you have DHs around Asia/Europe.

On the long layovers, no one is on reserve. If someone calls in sick or something happens, scheduling will try and get you, but you are under no obligation to answer.

 

[propjob27]

Off topic:

Can a SWA on here actually confirm the rumor about being on reserve (or otherwise forced to be contactable prior to show time in the lobby)

Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, details please.