International Flt. Planning

[empenage]

This isnt a poll so get those fingers off the keyboard.

Our department uses Universal Weather & Aviation, to the tune of over 20,000$ a month. The service is OK but I was wondering if anyone has used Air Routing International, etc. ?

Has anyone had problems with Universal lately?

Any feedback is appreciated.

 

[ultrarunner]

I have been using AirRouting for the last couple of years and I have no complaints really to speak of.

I don't have near the usage your deparment has, and with the costs you are currently at, I would recommend having AirRouting come in and give you a proposal.

Additionally, I'd have Universal "compete" for the business as well. Since if you're unhappy with any aspect of what they are offering, I would have to think they would listen.

At nearly a quarter of a million dollars a year in fees, you are in an EXCELLENT position to dictate what you want, and what you're willing to pay.

At the very least, I would expect your costs to be reduced no matter what vendor you choose.

 

[empenage]

I wanted to try to have another company like Air Routing do a trip for us and see if there is real difference. I was just wondering if anyone has used both and if so what was the difference.

If I do this I'm sure this "other company" would be on their best behavior and I dont want to find out 6 months down the road that they are the same or worse than Universal. We will fly 31 out of 31 days this month and to try and switch over to another company, with our schedule, could be tough on the crews.

What I'm really looking for is "service". We go to a bunch of out-of-the-way places and we have had problems with handlers and flight planning with Universal.

 

[ultrarunner]

As I said, I have been using AirRouting, and the places that I frequent, I have not had any problems with flight plans or handlers. The release, wx, etc has, in nearly each case, always been at the hotel AND at the airport when they said it would be.

Handlers have been fine as well.

Most of the problems that I have run into when traveling to 'out of the way places' have more to do with folks you have little control over.

Case-in-point:

Fueling... If you're at an airport where there is no FBO, per say, and it's just airline fuel, you wait if there's a push...simple as that.

Issues such as this have little to do with the handling agent.

I would expect if you do a trip this week with AirRouting, you will not eno**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**er any problems.

But again, I must iterate... if you're spending a quarter mil a year at Universal and you're having problems with flight plans, I'd be up someones butt so quick....

well, you get the point...

And in the mean time, try AR. A word of caution... I have seen instances where each of these vendors might use the same handling agent at destination so ask when you book the trip.

 

[empenage]

And in the mean time, try AR. A word of caution... I have seen instances where each of these vendors might use the same handling agent at destination so ask when you book the trip.

Now that is very interesting. I didnt know that.

We did the "up the butt" thing last week. Universal doesnt want to lose us as a customer. How about switching "teams"? We have the yellow team right now and they are used to us. I'm wondering if we might get better treatment on another team?

 

[ultrarunner]

Teams huh? Didn't know Univ. used teams. Hmmm.

I suppose you could try that, but maybe the problems you are encountering are deeper than that.

 

[empenage]

I think the problem, for the most part, is lack of attention to detail. We do encounter many changes to our trips before our departure dates. I know that anytime there are changes to a schedule there are bound to be mistakes. It just seems that it is happening more often.

On a standard trip for us, say KMMU-LFSB-RJAA-VABB-VAAH-VABB-LFSB-KMMU, small details start to add up fast.

 

[ratings:all]

int'l

is seems most of these discussions revolve around 'the two that used to be one'. from what i understand, air routing started out first, and universal was started by air routing employees. from my humble experience, no matter which planning company you use, you're going to come across the same mentality.

as far as pricing goes, i never never never forwarded an invoice for payment withouth looking it over for accuracy first . . . and caught many mistakes that were on *their* part, and got the bill reduced.

as far as differences between the two, air routing has the best security arm, but i prefer universal's weather. however, nobody seems to mention the other players in the game. jeppesen and baseops, and arinc just started up one, as well. might well be worth looking into

 

[ukipilot]

Try AIRINC, we have been using them for quite some time at a much better price than you have been paying with UNIVERSAL, and have had excellent services with them, they do everything that universal does, and you have AFIS capabilities with them also. Typical trips for us are:

KMCO-PHNL-VHHH-LIRN-LIMC-LOWS-UUEE-EFHK-ESSA-EGSS-LFPO-LEMD-HECA-KMCO

Try them

 

[lawndart]

International

We've tried about everyone out there.... Universal, Air Routing, Baseops, Skyplan, Jeppesen, etc...and have settled on Universal. We did go to them and beat them down on their prices. We are with the Yellow team also, and have had very few problems (we had far more problems with the other vendors). There are some locations that we frequent that we specify the handling agent we want to use (Buenos Aires- Transair, Sao Paulo- Ogden, just to name a couple). Universal doesn't like it, but they will do it. There are some locations that there isn't a choice, but most of the handling agents are independant agents that will work for whoever is paying them. Tony D'Asta is the best guy to deal with on the yellow team. Some of the other guys you have to watch. Overall, they do a decent job and will talk pricing with you if they think you are going to use someone else.

 

[empenage]

Thank you all for the great feedback.

I do appreciate it.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Our captains have a choice between using Universal or Air Routing. Most guys use Universal unless going to the Pacific Basin/Far East. Air Routing seems to do a better job over there. We only go to India once in a blue moon so I can't really comment on that service.

 

[empenage]

That was another question I had for you guys. No harm in using 2 or 3 different companies? Right?

Also, we just switched over to EFB's. After using Jepp's for 24 years I have to say they (EFB's) scare me. I still print out my departure, destination and alternate on paper.

What do you guys use for back up? One department in our hanger uses NOS as a backup in the cockpit. I wanted to avoid that but I want these guys, and Gals, to feel comfortable.

 

[lawndart]

We have used EFBs for the past two years. I always print destination, departure and alternate charts prior to departure. We also carry a laptop on board with Jeppview on it plus a printer so that we can print them on the go. It's a good idea if you carry the laptop and printer to make sure that the FA/cabin attendant knows how to run Jeppview and print from it. The good news is that in 2 yrs, I've never had to resort to the laptop, although I have had one of the EFB's fail (We carry 2 on board). We also carry the Jeppview disk on board so that in an absolute pinch, I can put it into my personal laptop. Also, throw away the printed charts at the end of each trip... that's the best way to ensure that you don't wind up with out-of-date charts in the cockpit.

 

[empenage]

Lawndart:

It's good to hear your feedback on the EFB's. We did go as far as having a feed in the cockpit (co-pilots side) that goes to the printer back by the fax machine. It just prints real slow.

Also, we too carry the disc for Flightdeck on the aircraft just in case.

I'm an "old guy", how long did it take you to feel comfortable with the EFB's??

Thanks again.

 

[lawndart]

It took several months to get comfortable with the EFB's, although I still don't trust them completely.... they are, after all, powered by Windows....But I think that the key is to have backups for your backups.
Depending on the equipment that you're using, seeing the display in bright daylight can be a real challenge. We have the Fujitsu LT tablet PC's (which I recently learned are out of production now).
Our airplane laptop has Jeppview Flightdeck, Ultranav and the maintenance manual for the airplane on it. It is not used for anything but support of the airplane.

 

[empenage]

I'm glad to hear it took several months to get used to the EFB's. There is hope for me yet!

We have the UltraNav right on the EFB's and can take them to the hotel room and log onto the internet as well. Nobody has tried this yet because we are afraid to lose them or drop them.

Hey thanks for the posts, I really appreciate them.

 

[ukipilot]

We have 2 EFB's on board our BBJ and Have used them for the past 2 years without a problem, if one did not work we have the other one, we never print any charts, it is just a waste of paper and wood, that is why we have 2 in the cockpit, plus if we had to , we could get the same info on our laptop, there is plenty of backups without having to print paper ones. That is the whole idea of using the EFB, to get rid of the paper, not add more, if you have 2 and a laptop, why print.

As a side note, I love technology, it took no time at all to switch to them, I was glad not to have to do paper revisions any more or Q service plus all of them stupid binders

 

[banned username 2]

This isnt a poll so get those fingers off the keyboard.

Our department uses Universal Weather & Aviation, to the tune of over 20,000$ a month. The service is OK but I was wondering if anyone has used Air Routing International, etc. ?

Has anyone had problems with Universal lately?

About 2 years ago my company switched from Universal to Air Routing. Air Routing has been doing an excellent job for us, and I hear the fees are lower. It seemed to me that Universal used to drop the ball occasionally, Air Routing has been excellent so far...

We have no plans to return to Universal (that I am aware of)...

 

[empenage]

I think what we will do is give Air Routing a try and see the difference.

Probably on our next Pacific trip.

 

[PMVULB AvMgr]

Suggest you use both UVair as well as AR. That's what I've done for years, This keeps both on their toes, as each is trying to outdo the other in hopes of getting all your business. UVair is best in Europe, South and Central America, while Air Routing is best in the Far East and India. As far as handlers go, if you have a favorite, insist on using that one, regardless of who is setting it up. Remember, YOU dictate to the handling agencies who YOU want to use, not the other way around.

I would also strongly suggest that you insist on having one individual assigned to your account from each company. Don't go with the team concept, that's BS. When you work with one individual, that person gets to know what you want without having to do the 10 minute briefing every time you speak with another member of the team! Again, if you insist on this, you will get it.

Always request a complete breakdown of "Communications" charges, no matter who sends them to you. Great moneymaker for all of the Flight Handling companies, without providing backup receipts. I cut every one of these at least into half before I pay them.

Finally, why not attend the NBAA International Operators Conference, next week in Anaheim. Check out NBAA's website for info.

Good luck.