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Interesting possibility for CMR and ASA

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General,

Why not spin off Song? It could raise a few hundred millions and might actually become profitable once the agreements with its pilots were renegotiated (that in turn would relieve Delta of considerable overhead including pension burden).

If the pilots don't want to go with Song they could opt to stay with Delta. I'm sure the newly independent company would have little trouble hiring qualified pilots from those furloughed at USAir, United and American, and even Delta.

A ten year contract with Delta for services such as reservations, marketing, advertising and handling would generate profits for Delta in lieu of the current losses from Song.

Sounds like a capital idea to me. Nothing personal, just good business.
 
Comair and specifically ASA probably represent more cash value to Delta right now than long-term value. Grinstein is of the opinion (and rightly so) that $240 million a year isn't worth it if you need $1 billion right now.
Comair has been a very lucky airline, this doesn't mean that within the year we won't find ourselves in a hopeless position. Let it be known, Comair cannot compete against low-ball carriers like CHQ in a fee for departure environment. If the standard profit margin for contract carriers is 7%, you can bet CHQ is close to that number. That means that right now, ASA and CMR have a 7% advantage over CHQ and SKYW. That advantage will evaporate should (when?) Delta IPO the W/O's.

So what happens if CMR or ASA are spun off?
  • Merger talks would be all but silenced. We would no longer be owned by the same company and a successful petition to the NMB would be much less likely.
  • Growth would stop...at least until CMR/ASA pilots took a pay cut down to CHQ rates (not likely), or until CHQ pilots got a pay raise to CMR/ASA rates (even less likely). Thus growth at Comair/ASA would come to a grinding halt with the endless proposals of pay cuts. Hopefully a halt in growth is as far as it would go, without the jets being reassigned to SKYW or even CHQ.
  • Downward pressure on everybody's (especially mainline) wages would be the new norm with no end in sight. Concessions would be a monthly headline at all current Delta-owned pilot groups. The portfolio concept could then be unstoppable at all ALPA carriers.
  • RJ's would still arrive at DCI (CHQ) and Delta would still shrink in ranks, this time faster due to the lower labor costs.
  • Code-shares for Comair and ASA with other airlines would be out of the question. Firstly, we can't compete. Secondly, Delta will, either by maintaining a controlling interest in the companies, or by force-feeding a long-term contract, not allow another DCI carrier to join ranks with a competitor, or like ACA, become a new competitor.

Explain to me again why the Delta pilots are so interested in seeing ASA/CMR IPO'd when it will mean lower wages and less pilots. What happened to the policy of bringing RJ rates proportionally up to mainline wages as a means of limiting RJ growth? Or is it that some DAL pilots (like the ones posting on this board) have more interest in seeing Comair/ASA fail than Delta succeed?

The writing is on the wall. The fact that ASA was awarded as many jets as they were through the RFP is attractive to future investors. Comair has had a track performance before the buyout that could propell it to a substantial IPO. It doesn't matter if these are really true or not, but whether or not DAL management believe they're true or not. Grinstein has stopped denying the sale of assests and is now replying with "anything is possible."

Comair and ASA leadership (all pilots for that matter) need to stop arguing with the DCI-hating Delta pilots and start asking, "what if they're right? Do we have a plan to prevent what they are suggesting?" Unfortunately our only defense to an IPO seems to be, "they'll never do that." That is insufficient for me. They most certainly could do that, and I don't want to know why they won't, but what we'll do if they do. I will not go down with the ship explaining why it theoretically never should have started leaking.

Delta pilots, stop poking holes in our boat! Don't you realize the answer to the RJ "threat" is higher RJ wages? The trend is going the wrong way and yet you are in favor of that trend?!?! Unbelievable! Why would you possibly demand Comair/ASA pilots "share" in the pay cuts when the difference between mainline and connection pay rates is the problem, not the actual values. RJ's are so attractive to mgmt because they are so much cheaper to operate in proportion to mainline aircraft than they should be. Don't you realize that, according to DOT Form 41 reports and Eclat, the MD-80 costs over 12 cents per ASM (12.6) while the most expensive 50-seater is at 10.3 CASM? 70-seaters are even better at an industry average of 6.5 CASM. To put that into perspective, Southwest operates their 737's at 4.3 CASM. This is a reverse economy of scale. How can a 142-seat aircraft be more expensive per unit than a 50-seat aircraft, and how will lowering the 50-seat costs help bring those numbers back into proportion? The only reason airlines fly larger aircraft is because they cost less per unit to fly. You have made it cheaper to use a smaller aircraft per seat/mile than a larger aircraft, and yet you blame the pilots who are trying to perserve their wages and shrink the difference. Don't you understand that the inevitable Comair/ASA concessions after an IPO would make the situation so much worse for you?

But at least Comair suffers, right?

If DALPA saw past their own current pay check, they'd see that, even though the sale of CMR/ASA means they would have to take fewer cuts now to save the company, the downward pressure on their pay, and specifically the growth of the ever-hated RJ, only this time at non-ALPA carriers, would mean a much much smaller paycheck in the long-run. An IPO of Comair/ASA is an unacceptable situation for all ALPA carriers (except of course Mesa). Who would benefit? CHQ, SKYW, MESA, Teamsters, and all managements. Delta,Comair, and ASA leadership must be willing to use all available power to prevent an IPO.
 
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Here is a link to the CC yesterday, I highly reccomend listening to minutes 33-42.

http://biz.yahoo.com/cc/1/40851.html


Referrring to Ray Neidl's question regarding an ipo of cmr or asa Grinstein said, based on how we 'now' look at it the connection carriers are an integral part of our business plan going foreward.
analysis; why are you 'now' looking at them as an intregal part of your business plan going foreward, are you saying that you did not look at them as being so integral before, when you tripled the size of ASA and CMR?

Sam Bechwick stated, while I certainly concur and appreciate your earlier comment regarding the integral aspect of your currently wholly owned regional carriers and how important they are for your overall network, that economic objective can be fully realized without holding the equity position. After an unprecedented period of silence, grinstein stated , well we've obviously looked at a lot of alternatives and we will continue to look at a lot of alternatived and we are aware of that statement.
You can't be more direct than sam was, he is a player and always hits the nail on the head. I will not follow many, but what J.P morgan has in this guy, is certainly enough to closely follow the percentage of institutional ownership JP morgan carries in DAL. Gerry's dance around this question is just a perfect example of not coming foreward and admitting they are making money had over fist for delta. Why else would Gerry, fell it is neccesary to keep that equity postion at all?
You can paint doom and gloom all you want, I am not buying it....figuratively anyway. Future skies are blue for DAL they don't need the massive paycut they are asking for, but managment has to justify their compensation and pension packages, and it shows that their leadership is inferior to their peers if they don't get paycuts, because peers already have. Sound familiar?
Bottom line, if Skywest, Chautaqua and ACA can make a dollar, DAL could have had that dollar, or at least close to it if it is true that CMR and ASA's costs are too high. Which I certainly don't believe, escpecially since the published CASM's for CMR are the lowest in the industry.
 
surplus1 said:
Why not spin off Song? It could raise a few hundred millions and might actually become profitable once the agreements with its pilots were renegotiated (that in turn would relieve Delta of considerable overhead including pension burden).

If the pilots don't want to go with Song they could opt to stay with Delta. I'm sure the newly independent company would have little trouble hiring qualified pilots from those furloughed at USAir, United and American, and even Delta.

A ten year contract with Delta for services such as reservations, marketing, advertising and handling would generate profits for Delta in lieu of the current losses from Song.

Sounds like a capital idea to me. Nothing personal, just good business.

Surplus, if DAL were to spin off Song and use Song to fly DL code, they would have to use DAL pilots flying under the DAL PWA. That's why it's not even mentioned, except by the uninformed, since there is no advantage in the spin off. OTOH, several analyst are questioning DAL over spinning off ASA and/or CMR. As Buttricks of USB stated in the conference call, DAL can still have the RJ lift, without owning the equity.

I would think that you would be over joyed to be spun off Surplus.
 
FDJ2 said:
Surplus, if DAL were to spin off Song and use Song to fly DL code, they would have to use DAL pilots flying under the DAL PWA.

That assumes that your PWA will remain intact in the event of a fire sale. If I were you, I wouldn't hitch my wagon to that star. There's a reason why Song was created as a subsidiary, rather than an "airline-within-an-airline" a la Delta Express and it wasn't the paint job.

If you really think that your "seniors" won't agree to cut their losses by dumping the juniors, when the going gets really rough, think again.

Remember too, Song doesn't have to operate under the DL code. It's an LCC in a package, ready to go. Isn't your former President (Reid) now employed by Branson to start a new LCC? It would be poetic something if he just bought the package from DAL, sans your bodies or your PWA. He could have it up and running in 90-days. The DL code isn't the panacea that you think it is. Never say never.

Of course that's just an uninformed opinion, so don't sweat it.

As far as the analysts go, if they really knew how to run an airline they would be CEO's not analysts, don't you think?

I would think that you would be over joyed to be spun off Surplus.

If it were possible, without a cumbersome contract with Delta, I'd be hugging management and singing kumbaya. But alas, that is not likely, so no, I would not be overjoyed. Given what four years of Delta ownership has done to the company's entrepenuerial spirit and how your scope clause has saddled us with the wrong mix of airplanes I would not be a happy camper to see us as a clone of XJT.

Nevertheless, there is a high probability that we would be a lot more dangerous to y'all as an independent subcontractor than the current status quo. Be careful what you ask for, you might get it.
 
Surplus1,

A lot of those "seniors" will be leaving by June 1st---due the rising Gatt rate and huge difference in lump sum between June 1st and July 1st. The lump sum difference could be well over $100,000 for guys with more than 25 years---and there are a lot of those.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
Surplus, you defend your original incorrect assumptions by reaching deep for a highly improbable hypothetical, a fire sale. I guess in a hypothetical world all is possible. But DAL has $300M more unrestricted cash this April than last, unit costs are down 3.6% despite fuel prices having risen over 12%, operating expenses are flat even though capacity is up 3.5% and operating revenue is up 4.3%. I don't think too many folks are predicting a fire sale any time soon.
 
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FDJ2 said:
Surplus, you defend your original incorrect assumptions by reaching deep for a highly improbable hypothetical, a fire sale. I guess in a hypothetical world all is possible. But DAL has $300M more unrestricted cash this April than last, unit costs are down 3.6% despite fuel prices having risen over 12%, operating expenses are flat even though capacity is up 3.5% and operating revenue is up 4.3%. I don't think too many folks are predicting a fire sale any time soon.

Aren't your assumptions about the spin off of ASA/CMR equally hypothetical? One or two analysts asked a question and you immediately jump on the bandwagon "wishing" it would happen. Why is that?

Look, I don't want Delta to sell Song or anything else. Time has somewhat proven that there is little success in attempting to "shrink a company" to profitability. If selling CMR, ASA, Song, or any other asset is substantially proven to be beneficial to the Company, then it should be done. However, we should not be advocating the sale of what are argueably the Company's only profitable assets because you don't happen to "like" the regional subsidiaries. That is what you and your buddies are doing.

You find that it is OK for you to advocate that the Company dump its profitable operations because you don't like us, but you get upset when I suggest that maybe it could dump something that apparently isn't doing well, because it could adversely affect you. That is not hypothetical, it is hypocritical.

Here's another hypothesis that you probably won't like either. A) You get your wish and the Company spins off ASA and Comair. B) Shortly thereafter, Comair and ASA (now free of DAL control), merge with each other. C) Subsequently, the new Comasa acquires or mergers with CHQ and SKYW. forming a single airline with more airplanes and more pilots than Delta itself.

What will Delta's position be after that has occurred? What ability will Delta then have to play the new combinded entity against some other entity; who is that entity most likely to be [you]? Who will then control ALL of Delta's feed? What will happen to the so-called "portfolio" invented by Butrell? How will the Delta MEC be able to browbeat this new entity? What will happen to the DMEC's leverage against "us" when we are equal or greater in number to you?

Yes, it's all hypothetical, particularly your assumption that the sale of ASA and CMR will benefit your personal interests. Like I said before, be careful what you ask for, you might get it.

Spend some time thinking about what is best for the Company. It is often unwise to "bite the hand that feeds you".
 
That would be a good thing to do before declaring Chap.11!! At least it will protect the Comair and ASA contracts, and let the Delta contract go out the door. Then Delta pilot's pay will be on-line with Comair.
 
I doubt that. We would unload you guys, gain cash, and then eventually get a lower paying contract---but you guys would be under a 10 year flying contract like Skywest. Then, if you wanted to fly for someone else also, you would have to cut your rates to compete with the likes of Mesa, Chataqua, etc..... I don't think your current contract would last long in the next round of talks....Just like ours now. We are all headed down hill.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
surplus1 said:
Here's another hypothesis that you probably won't like either. A) You get your wish and the Company spins off ASA and Comair. B) Shortly thereafter, Comair and ASA (now free of DAL control), merge with each other. C) Subsequently, the new Comasa acquires or mergers with CHQ and SKYW. forming a single airline with more airplanes and more pilots than Delta itself.



How would this new "Comasa" be able to aquire SKYW or CHQ?

I would more likely bet on seeing SKYW or another carrier aquire Comair or ASA.
 
Why not spin ASA and Comair off now, take DAL into CH 11, then have ASA and Comair aquire DAL out of bankruptcy. We could staple the DAL pilots to the botom of our list, then run all of DAL under the ASA or Comair PWA.
 
Let's take a look at this from a business perspective...

COMAIR/ASA making tons of money...

Delta losing tons of moey...

Choice 1: Spin-off COMAIR/ASA, lose the income from their operation, renegotiate the contract of pilots who's first officer pay scales are higher than just about every airlines CAPTAIN pay scales. Hopefully the pilots and other labor groups will be sensible and Delta will get their costs in line with the rest of the industry...

or

Choice 2: Grow COMAIR/ASA like crazy, start taking money from Delta and putting over on the COMAIR/ASA side, start selling DELTA one piece at a time. Eventually what will be left is a low labor cost structure unincumbered by archaic scope clauses that will be free to grow at will. Maybe COMAIR/ASA is a chance for Delta to start over with labor costs.

Don't think it's possible, sound's far fetched, well, AMR was 1 vote away (of the board of directors) from selling American Airlines in the early 80's. Crandall's plan was to rest the future of AMR on SABRE.

Delta pilots should be taking this opportunity to get all of the pilots on one seniority list. That is the only thing that is going to save the Delta pilots their jobs.

Delta and American Pilot's deserve that they are getting hosed by their regionals. Either group of pilots could have insisted that they fly ANY airplanes owned by their companies. Delta/American pilots were too proud to fly Turbo-props.

Oh well, hind-site is 20/20.

How much a pilot is going to make at a financially sound airline is out of our control, the only real question is what group of pilots are going to be flying those planes.

The whip-sawing has already begun.
 
Remember when AirTran (a small airline with about five aircraft) bought the much larger ValueJet. I could see ASA and Comair being able to aquire a much larger DAL if DAL is in Ch 11 bankruptcy.

Right now DAL's market value is lower than Skywest's. Go into Ch11, get rid of the DAL PWA, expensive aircraft leases, lower the cost of aircraft gates, eliminate the DAL pilots's A Fund, sell off some assets, then a leaner DAL could be aquired by a smaller airline with better management and a lower cost structure.
 

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