Interesting: No rudder needed at all???

[midlifeflyer]

Bad idea. It works OK with little airplanes, but as mmmdonut said, it's not a good idea once you get into larger aircraft.

I know a very experienced DE who doesn't like it much in little airplanes either.

If we follow the common wisdom that the max angle of bank is the lesser of standard rate and the number of degrees to turn, those 2-3° turns aren't going to have much bank anyway. But, I was taught the rudder turn also, and my ability to hold the localizer with small corrections increased a lot when I started making even those small turns coordinated.

 

[philo beddoe]

Rudder only is very lazy and is a substitute for learning to use corect technique.

To the original poster:

Here's an experiment to try next time you fly:

Slow to stall + 20 or so knots.

Try making turns with very large aileron deflections with and without rudder.

You wll see the difference, I asssure you.


Now, as to why you 'didn't need' rudder in your instructor's demo:


Adverse yaw is directly proportional to the amount of aileron deflection.

The stabiliing effect of the vertical stabilizer is enough to overcome most of it in a typical Cessna or Warrior/Archer. Also the higher the airspeed, the better the stabilizing effect. Try the experiment I described, and you wlill definitely see the need for rudder.

Poor rudder use is a big reason that many IFR students fall apart on the last 200' of an ILS. The uncoordinated 'aileron only' technique works really well until near the end when more precision is required.

One of the reasons for the 'rudder only' technique is that it IS easy to make small accurate heading changes this way, But is is sloppy, lazy technique.

Miniscule, but correct use of rudder has worked well to 'fix' ILSs for the many dozens of IFR students I have worked with.

 

[UnAnswerd]

More modern designs such as Piper's PA-28 series are so forgiving that some students never really learn "what their feet are for".

Yep, that's what we were flying. My instructor did have me push rudder only. The plane yawed, but things were clearly uncoordinated by observing the inclometer.

 

[UnAnswerd]

Or it could be that you have a lousy instructor and he is moving the rudder with his feet while you fly.

Horrible technique on his/her part. You might ask him if he is doing that.

I did. He had me turn the yoke and we make a turn. Since I was under the impression that you always had to use the rudder, I was surprised, and proceeded to ask him if he was applying any rudder. He said "no rudder". I'm sure I'll learn more about the rudder as I progress further into my training.

 

[paulsalem]

The rudder is actually only there to made up for a flaw in the design of alerons. Pick up a copy of stick and rudder. Amazing book. It dispells many aerodynamic myths.

 

[Lead Sled]

The rudder is actually only there to made up for a flaw in the design of alerons.

It's not really that simple and there are other valid reasons for rudders than merely to compensate for adverse aileron yaw. Rudders come in pretty handy when you need to slip or when you're landing in x-winds.

Unanswerd...

I'm not about to second guess your instructor's method. Granted, it's not the way that I usually choose to teach turns, but he probably has his reasons. The last thing your CFI needs is to have a student that runs to a forum like this one every time he he tries to introduce a new concept. Relax, take a few deep breaths and get on with the program. I'm sure that he'll teach it properly. If he doesn't, this forum isn't the place to go to get things sorted out. If it ever comes to that, you'll simply need to find another instructor. Like I said, give it a bit of time.

Lead Sled

 

[lawfly]

Rudder

Rudder & The ILS

I didn't say I do it or teach it. I said "you'll be...with rudder only". I do know at least one guy, a DPE, who teaches it and the heading change at issue when I flew with him was literally 1 or 2 degrees, during an ILS. He demo'd his rudder-only technique to me not too long ago. Hey, it was his show at the time. He did comment about "people in the back" (we didn't have any at the time; it was an 8-10 seater).

I just teach "small corrections" on the ILS. And have shot many to mins in actual w/pax on board. No puke yet. (The DPE's demo came after my own aileron-guided bracketing. It's just his "thing", apparently.)

The intended implication of my earlier post was that given Unanswerd's present tendencies toward aileron-only turns during relatively large heading changes, he might have a tendency toward rudder-only during very small heading changes, on a localizer, and there is at least one DPE encouraging rudder-only in heading changes of one or two degrees, on a localizer. Unanswerd's original post reminded of the DPE's presentation.

 

[Singlecoil]

The rudder is actually only there to made up for a flaw in the design of alerons. Pick up a copy of stick and rudder. Amazing book. It dispells many aerodynamic myths.

That would be true if you only flew airplanes with counter-rotating props, or pure jets. Even Turbo-fans have left-turning tendencies due to the size of the fan. In a single engine airplane, or a twin that doesn't have counter-rotating props, your feet will (should) move everytime you move the throttle(s).

edit: I guess I left out gliders...

 

[Goose Egg]

My students sure don't seem to think that they need any rudder on the takeoff roll. I beg to differ with them.

-Goose

 

[lawfly]

Rudder During Climb

I've trimmed it in during climbs to altitude in a TBM-700. Small price to pay, though...It also comes in handy in multis when one stops turning.