Interesting ATA article

[Heavy Set]

Flyhard,

Layoff General Lee - he is bringing some realism to this forum - not EVERY LCC is doing extremely well like Southwest or Jetblue... ATA is a great airline, but its debt load is very high - should that fact be concealed from potential ATA newhires? Did you get alarmed when you read those debt-to-cash figures? I did - let's hope the banks cooperate...

I hope everything works out at ATA. But you need to lay off the General - don't shoot the messenger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[General Lee]

Wow, I sure hit a cord. Some people do not take bad news well.


Flyboeingjets,

I loved your post. I am so glad you are right in there with Leo and the boys and know the complete situation. I bet they are asking you for advice. The money we continue to lose is called Arthur Anderson style accounting, and it was shown when management only asked the pilots for paycuts. Many captains are leaving right now--due to the low Gatt rate, they can have a HUGE lump sum-----a lot more than your guys will make. Yes, management has invented some interesting ways to keep extra money for themselves, but we put a stop to that---and that is why they stopped negotiating. We are the strongest major, and have the most cash---$2.8 billion unrestricted----and we will ride this out. Enjoy those heavy 757-200's (What???)(Yeah, I know you have 753's too----but heavy -200's--ok---oh that's right--it is 1 pound over the limit) And, Song doesn't count, eh? You bet it does, and the 1000 RJs---it all adds up.

Slug,

Yeah, I toot the Delta horn, and I am proud of it. But, I am sick and tired of LCC guys thinking everything is rosy. For ATA, it really isn't. Delta gets bashed all of the time, and I was just pointing out that others struggle too. And, it really seems that you think highly of yourself.

Flyhard,

No thanks, and I guess all of the reports about the ATA woes are wrong and you are right......Ummmm yeah. As far as me getting furloughed---well, maybe after two more nuclear wars.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Re: Lavdumper?

Aw, forget it.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

General,

I actually do wish you and Delta well. I know a few Delta (UAL, and AA pilots too) and hope it all works out.

But when you throw this stuff in our face and say "I don't mean to pee in your cornflakes" I can't take it. You did mean to pee in our cornflakes. That's ok, just be honest about it.

I do think new hires need to know what they are getting into. For that reason this is a valid thread.

Boy this board is a good place to get bad feelings out of your system. I've spent months wondering why pilots dump on each other here and now I know why (being guilty of it myself now). I do feel better.

 

[UM#1]

The money we continue to lose is called Arthur Anderson style accounting, and it was shown when management only asked the pilots for paycuts.

I dont want to get involved in the tiff with you and Boeing. But this caught my eye. I have many friends at Delta and think its a great company, Im a large investor of Delta stock and after the recent dip from 15 to 11 I'm concered about the cost control there and it's effects on future profits. From a recent Article;
"The No. 3 U.S. carrier, whose shares slipped 65 cents, or 4.98 percent, to $12.40 on the New York Stock Exchange on Friday morning, said on Thursday it expects a loss of $200 million to $250 million excluding items in the third quarter.

Goldman Sachs analyst Glenn Engel widened his 2003 loss estimate for the Atlanta-based carrier to $8.85 a share from $7.95 a share previously, citing Delta's continued cost pressures.

Delta earlier this month began early contract talks with its pilots in the hopes of securing concessions similar to those won by its peers.

"Until Delta can achieve competitive pilot costs, we doubt the carrier can earn industry average margins," Engel wrote in a research

So I ask you this, as an investor, how do you see that Delta is "cooking the books" per say, to show that the pilot group is the thorn in the financial side? Where talking another 200 to 250 million lost next quarter, now I also believe Delta has the best chance to make it thru all this but something needs to be cut.

 

[General Lee]

UM#1,

There are many ways to show losses. One time charges, for example, are a great way to "get rid of all the bad" when times are bad, and then out of nowhere---you have huge profits. That is how management pressures employees----show the bad, cut the wages, then show a profit, and then grant bonuses to management. One of my good friends who went to the Wharton Business School pointed that out to me. We actually offered to go through negotiations---and we didn't have to until 2005. We sat down and management only wanted to extract pay from our contract--even though the other groups have no union or contract. Management was looking to gut an expensive contract that was negotiated fairly. We know times aren't great right now, but our view was "everyone--including management--should share in the cost cuts." Management didn't like this at all---and we left negotiations. If Delta really needed the cash or wanted to improve their balance sheet right now--they would have accepted. If we, the pilots, gave an immediate 10%---apparently that would have saved Delta about $180 million in the first year, which would probably help that supposed $200 million loss projected by them next quarter. If everyone gave 10%, we might show better results and help the stock for you--the investor. Why would management say no to the possiblity of $270 million from us--(15% cuts)? Maybe they just wanted to take advantage of the "bleak" situation? We negotiated fairly this contract. We don't mind helping when times are tough, but we would like to have it back when times are good.



Flyboeingjets,

I apologize. I can see how my posting two articles with bad news might be seen as rubbing it "in your face." I initially read them and was stunned because I really wasn't aware of the problems.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[UM#1]

General Lee,
I see now, thanks for taking the time to explain, not being on the "inside" of things you only have to go by what articles and such you can get your hands on. Keep us updated, I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[VampyreGTX]

ATA increasing service at MDW

ATA to increase Midway flights

By Robert Manor
Tribune staff reporter
Published July 29, 2003

While industry giants such as like American Airlines and United Airlines are cutting flights, ATA Airlines announced Monday that it will increase its weekly departures from Midway Airport to 568 from 513 by the end of the year.

The airline is adding flights in 12 markets, including Boston, Newark, Philadelphia, San Francisco and Ft. Myers, Fla. The carrier will also will increase flight frequencies to Las Vegas, Denver and San Juan, Puerto Rico, as well as and will add new seasonal service to Ixtapa/Zihuatanejo, Mexico.

The additional routes will solidify ATA's place as the largest carrier at Midway. The airline claims about 44 percent of Midway's business and 10 percent of all of Chicago's air travel.

"Like most of the low-fare carriers, their numbers have been steadily increasing," said Monique Bond, spokeswoman for the Chicago Department of Aviation.

Industry analysts say airlines such as like ATA, JetBlue Airways and Southwest Airlines are taking routes abandoned by the larger air carriers. While all carriers have been hurt by the Sept. 11 attacks and the weak economy, the smaller low-cost airlines have found a way to keep growing.

ATA started out serving tourist destinations such as like Florida and Mexico, and leisure travel remains its main business. But the flights added Monday include commercial centers such as like Boston and Philadelphia.

John Pincavage, an aerospace analyst with Pincavage & Associates, said ATA is trying to lure business travelers, not just recreational passengers.

"They are adding more service to attract a broader spectrum of travelers," Pincavage said. "It's going to be interesting to see how that works."

Monday's additions continue ATA's has been growth ing at Midway for years. The airline says it has more than doubled the number of flights in the past five years. And its new fleet and low fares have helped it win business travelers.

Rick Larsen, vice president of marketing, estimates that 40 percent of ATA's passengers are now traveling on business.

"The business traveler understands that we serve more than just leisure markets," Larsen said. "We are serving 40 markets out of Midway."

ATA began in 1972 as a charter operation with no fixed schedule. Its customers were recreational travelers on inexpensive junkets.

In 1981, it won certification as a common- air carrier. In 1992, the Indianapolis company began scheduled service out of Midway, which now accounts for the bulk of its flights.

ATA is not immune to the downturn in the airline industry. The company lost nearly $11 million in the first quarter of this year. It is scheduled to report its second-quarter earnings Tuesday.

But industry observers say ATA and the other low-fare carriers should are going to return to profitability faster than the bigger airlines.

Frank Werner, associate professor of finance at Fordham University Business School, said ATA can operate its planes more cheaply than full-service carriers such as like American.

One way to measure cost is the expense of flying one seat one mile.

"ATA's cost is only 7.4 cents," Werner said. "The major [airlines] are running around 11 or 12 cents."

A difference of 4 cents may not sound like much. But multiply that by the number of seats on a plane, and the multiply that by the thousands of miles a the plane flies each day, and it grows to a large sum.

Werner said ATA is able to keep costs down in part because its fleet has an average age of just 2.2 years.

"That's a very young fleet, which translates into a very efficient fleet," Werner said. "There is less to break down."

ATA says that because its aircraft have new, and efficient engines, they consume up to 35 percent less fuel than older planes.

Even ATA's legacy of serving vacation travelers contributes to its low cost, industry observers say. Because the airline had to compete on the basis of low fares, it was always forced to look for economies in its business.

"If you build your business on the leisure traveler, you build cost-saving in from the get go," said Nicolas Owens, aerospace analyst at Morningstar.


Copyright © 2003, Chicago Tribune

 

[Slug]

Lavdumper?
I don't know about my eyesight, but I think my screen reads the infamous, Delta horn blowing General Lee as the poster of that quote. I'm not sure LDumper has even weighed in on this one. Just an observation.

General Lee,

This was my post. I said "infamous" because you are well known, not because I dislike you. You are fun to read on occasion. I said Delta horn blowing because.......well you are. There is nothing wrong with that (to some it gets tiresome; they'll get over it).

Slug,

Yeah, I toot the Delta horn, and I am proud of it. But, I am sick and tired of LCC guys thinking everything is rosy. For ATA, it really isn't. Delta gets bashed all of the time, and I was just pointing out that others struggle too. And, it really seems that you think highly of yourself.

For your info, I spent 20 crappy months at UAL. That was my opinion. So if I'm happy being an LCC guy then that's my right. I don't think as highly of myself as you do of yourself. I'm a -737 driver who now likes my job, so back off loser.

Just an observation

That's all it was General, an observation about credit of a quote.

Slug

happy and no longer furloughed

 

[General Lee]

Slug,

"So back off loser."----Come on dude, don't resort to name calling. I thought your post to me originally was alittle snotty and I was calling you on it. It sure didn't seem like you were praising my efforts. I was just defending myself and my actions to a couple of other posts--and the reason I started this thread was because I didn't know ATA had a credit problem. Then I said most of our airlines, including mine, are having problems---even ATA which is a LCC. Next thing you know I am a punching bag.

As far as being furloughed, I am not, and I have always been a big advocate of trying to help Delta's furloughs and other airlines' furloughs as well. I am glad you are on with a stable company and hope you do not forget about the unfortunate people still out there on furlough. Enjoy your day.

Bye Bye--General Lee