Interesting analysis of the "Big Six"

[pipejockey]

This begs the questions:

What happens when the employees of the LCC have been there for a while and start wanting more money (seniority creap), a retirement plan (for after the company stock has become stagnant), and the aircraft in the fleet start to age, MX costs start to increase.

Just some thoughts from a guy that works for a 72 year old dinasaur airline.

Employees of the LCC's wanting more money? A retirement plan for when the stock becomes stagnant? NAAAAA!! Those guys don't think a pilot is worth what Pre 9-11 US Airways, United, AA, Delta (cuts to come), NWA (cuts to come), paid their pilots it seems. Its ashame, because lowering wages is not going to return an airline to profitability. US Airways pilot costs are comparable to SWA but still they fade away.

Heres to the 70 year old dinosaur airlines becoming 140 year old dinosaur airlines!! Long live the Legacy Carriers!! But alas, all good things seem to always end I just wish I was born about 30 years earlier and had the priveledge of living out my dream of being a pilot for one of them. Whats out there now aint what it used to be.

 

[furloughfodder]

I agree! The author speaks about deregulation starting the downard spiral of the aviation industry and he is right about that. But the low fare/wage airlines and those who work for them are the main reason we will never see the Professional Pilot make the same kind of money and enjoy the same style of life he did 10-20 years ago.

It will be interesting to watch the industry in the next few years. As SWA, JetB, and the other low cost cariers begin to get bigger their costs will go up. At some point they will start demanding industry leading pay and contracts (as opposed to getting paid peanuts and stock options like they have for the past 20 years).

 

[OPIE01]

What is industry Leading wages?

Why does everyone blame the LCC employees.

But the low fare/wage airlines and those who work for them are the main reason we will never see the Professional Pilot make the same kind of money and enjoy the same style of life he did 10-20 years ago.

Welcome to generation X dude. Studies show that Generation X and on will not make more than thier parents did. This will be the first Generation that didn't have the oppertunity as a whole to out do thier parents.

I spent 20+ years in the military and never made more than 8K a month. When I enlisted into the Army, my take home pay was $400 a month. I sent $200 home to support my mother and I had a $100 car payment. I had more money to spend then than I did making $8K. Why does every pilot have to make a bajilion Dollars a year to be happy. Money doesn't buy me happiness. If I really wanted to be rich I would have gone to Med school or tried to become a Professional B-Ball player.

When teachers, cops, and Combat soldiers who put up with a bunch of crap and put thier lives on the line whine about low pay when men who can barely read are paid millions to intertain us, I can accept their whining and see thier point.

But when fellow pilots bash LCC pilots because they are willing to work for $160 an hour as a Capt instead of Demanding $210, you have crossed the line in my book. If I stay health at SWA, In my third year I'll be making more than I did after 20 years Flying for the military.

Don't tell SWA but I would be willing to work for way less than what they are willing to pay me. I think I will feel like I am stealing from them. But that is just me, a future LCC Pilot who feels very lucky to have a promise of a rewarding job in a couple of months.

 

[Mugs]

Don't tell SWA but I would be willing to work for way less than what they are willing to pay me.

Would you still feel that way if you did not happen to have your otherwise well deserved military pension?

 

[OPIE01]

I didn't say my Wife would be happy

You got me there, I know my wife would have something to say about it. That is why I have waited 2 years for SWA. But how many years would I have to wait for Delta, United, American. And Oh by the way, 5 years to Captain at SWA vs. 12 years at American. Would I have been happy at any company flying, You are talking to a Guy who enjoyed working as a Ground FAC with the Army units for 2.5 year (Non-Flying). My wife hated it because I was gone so much, but I thrived in it.

I turned down oppertunities for interviews with JetBlue and AirTran. Plus have turned down jobs with a couple of corporate outfits. Not because I didn't like them or because SWA promised more money, but because I didn't feel it was right to have a good job lined up with SWA and take the chance of taking away a job from someone else that needed one at the other companies. Plus I thought I would have started with SWA sooner.

But to answer your question, would I work at SWA for less if I didn't have $30k in retirment a year. I would be happy with the pay I was getting when I taught Middle School Math from last Jan to May which was $40K a year. I will admit that my wife would have to get a full time job if that happened. But I was home every night, and my kids would get to stay in one school for more that 2 years. My 16 year old son went to 8 different schools because of military moves. He is only in the 10th grade now and loves the thought of staying to finish HS at one place and have Reletives nearby to watch him play soccer every week.

I am not saying that Everyone should get paid less, and I am not saying that Some Pilots aren't worth a Trillion dollars.

I guess I am saying that I have a scewed sense of reality. I barely graduated from High School, grew up on a dirt farm, never had more than $200 to my name before I enlisted in the Army, and feel very fortunate for the oppertunities that the military gave me and to this day can't believe they paid me as well as they did and let me fly Multi-million Dollar fighters along side with dudes with Big Brains and Big Brain Degrees. Did I love everything about the military. NO, especially the Commanders that were managers and not Leaders. But as a whole the Military was and is a great organization trying to do good.

My real point is that it is not the fault of the LCC pilots. Blame the Consumer, Blame the Taliban, Blame Saddam. If the consumer who can barely afford to ride the bus or train from Florida to DC can jump on a LCC for the same amount and save hours on the road is willing only to pay that amount. Guess what you will find someone out there that will give them the product.

I totally hate to go to Walmart, some reasons only my close friends know about. But I dislike the fact that they came in to every small town and put out of buisness all the High Cost Mom and Pop stores, totally destroying Small Downtown America. But do you see me bitching at the workers at Walmart for this. No I don't, Walmart is providing a service and cost that some consumers want. They provide low paying jobs for people who are willing to work for the wages, most of them feel fortunant enough to have the job and the Medical benefits that go with it.

We are a market based economy, Only the Gas Stations can charge what the market can bare and Banks pay as little interest on savings as possible and get away with it.

The LCCs attract people that normally could only afford to ride the Bus. And there are people out there like me who aren't in it for the money. As long as I have a job that pays me enough to live off of I'll be happy. Is my standard of living LOW, I guess it is.
Am I happy, YES I AM. Do I need $200K a year to be happy, NO I DON'T. Will Making $200K a year make me happier, I dought it. I will probably bitch about all the Taxes would have to pay.

I don't think I answered you question, but I feel good about what I said and that I was actually able to type this much without getting to confused. It is amazing that when you get Alshaimers you can't ever complete a thou......

Now where was I. Oh Yes Maam, strained Carrots are my favorite veggie.

 

[SWAdude]

Don't tell SWA but I would be willing to work for way less than what they are willing to pay me.

You won't be saying that for long.

Its ok to like where you work and have a good paying job.

SWAdude

 

[OPIE01]

I was wondering where my son was.

SWA Dude,

That Kid on your Picture looks just like my youngest son.

I know my patience will pay off in a great job and great pay. I can't wait to work for a Company that on 9/11/01 all the pilots rallied together and said they would do what ever it took not to furlough anyone.

 

[Publishers]

Deregulation

The article had a great many points that were right on target.

There is little qustion that it started with deregulation. Airlines had a philospophy and the fact that their routes were protected, meant they were not efficient, not driven, and spent most of their time securing the correct routes.

Deregulation changed the way the game was played, the basic rules of the game, and who had the advantage.

There were other factors as well. Leasing tended to erode the value of the business. Companies like ILFC changed the way aircraft deals were done.

Masked -- there were real market changes going on as well. In fact fewer and fewer tickets were sold at price. Problems were masked by yield management practices and the way tickets were sold.

Will the big six prosper again, depends on their ability to adapt to the new rules.

 

[CALformerCALX]

Well this thread has some excellent points and debates but in reality "deregulation" didn't kill the Legacy's. What it is going to do is one of the two over the next 10-20 years.

-The Legacy's will have to drop Int'l flying to be more domestic in structure and go face to face with the SWAs of the industry. Why? Becaue we can't afford to constantly put the most expensive equipment i.e. widebodys, along with the associated support equipment and staff in economies that are more cyclical than our own countrys economy.

The LCC are profitable, not because of lower labor costs but because of lower initial startup costs and the ability to fly only in domestic markets that truly make sense with a fleet that is very common.

-All Legacy domestic flying will go to regionals and the old Legacys will simply fly widebody aircraft Int'l only.

I've believed for some time that for CAL to honestly servive they need to slowly downsize the Int'l fleet and keep expanding the 737 with the idea of getting completely out of Int'l flying.

I would love to see the investment community and DC polititians when there are no US carriers willing to accept Int'l routes and all that money is being lost to Int'l carriers.

Until Washington realizes this problem only the LCC will continue to thrive in this country and the Big 6 will dwindle to the Big one and even it won't be very profitable, if at all.

No Big 6 can compete with the LCC when they have to maintain a domestic route structure just to fill Int'l flights. I say to heck with the Int'l flying and we should all go domestic only over hte next 10 years-then let's see how the playing field is then.

The proof is in how most all regionals make money yet their major counterparts struggle.

 

[mach none]

Re: What is industry Leading wages?

Why does everyone blame the LCC employees.


But when fellow pilots bash LCC pilots because they are willing to work for $160 an hour as a Capt instead of Demanding $210, you have crossed the line in my book. If I stay health at SWA, In my third year I'll be making more than I did after 20 years Flying for the military.

So are you going to write a check to Southwest each month for anything over 160/hour? That is over the "line" in your book.