Instrument training

[hammer]

My instructor has a over 30,000 hours, he has been flying since the late fifties. From what I know he has flown in vietnam, fire patrol, freight,corporate etc, he has even helped write some approach plates for the governent in the past. My instructor for my private recommended him because he was his instuctor. I have had 4 ground lessons with him before I flew and everything was fine. People at the FBO said he would take alittle longer but I would learn alot more when I am done. Except for the landing phase everything else went fine. I fly again Monday and I'll see how it goes. I keep you posted on my progress.

 

[hammer]

I have flew twice since my last post and things are going much better. My flights have been more like what I expected, no crazy approaches and alot of climbs and descents,timed turns, and vor work. I am enjoying it all but, there sure is alot going a once. I have been in the clouds alot and I can see how easy it is to get confused. My instructor is holding me to tighter tolerances on altitude,heading, and airspeed than my last one did during the private and it is somewhat tougher but I am getting use to it. It is alot of work but I believe it will pay off in the long run, I am begining to see how much I didn't know after completing my private.

 

[nosehair]

Here we go!

OK, you guys, here's my unpopular two cents. Normally, it is not a good thing to do an approach on the first lesson. But, sometimes, now I said "Some-times", in an experienced instructors best opinion, it can be of a benefit. He did say in a later post that he did lots of straight and level and turns climbs and descents. If that went exceptionally well,...well, maybe the ILS to finish off could be a good motivator. But that is a very individual decision of the individual instructor with the individual student under those unique conditions. See how I said that? I also emphasize the word "Experienced". The main point of that is to steer away from the "One Size Fits All" approach to flight training that we suffer under.
But the main reason I had to jump in here is that I ROUTINELY teach ILS approaches TO A LANDING UNDER THE HOOD. Yes, if you have been flying long enough, you have made an approach to near touchdown with very little runway environment contact. Life does not always go as planned. Just like we plan on engine failures and such. We should also plan on being forced to the ground in less than the required visibility. Would you make a missed approach into severe turbulance and lightning and green-black clouds. Is that a funnel cloud? Anyway, I would rather take my chances on following the localizer/glideslope to a known controlled crash to a runway than to climb up into a probable airplane break-up in the upcoming thunderstorm/tornado. And besides all that theroretical justification, it just plain builds skill and confidence to touchdown smoothly on the centerline in a landing attitude without ever seeing the runway. Cool, huh?

 

[TRLpilot]

nosehair, i realize i am less experienced than you but what you said just scared the crap out of me. "touchdown with very little runway environment contact" and "following localizer/glideslope to a known controlled crash". if my instructor told me that i would run for the hills. do alternate airports mean anything to you other than a box to fill in on the flight plan? i call it terrible PIC and absolutely the last thing you want to teach/encourage to a student. see you in the papers (obituaries).

 

[weekendwarrior]

I can see his point. Maybe there is a level 5 or funnel cloud right between you and your alternate. Maybe you have an inflight emergency of some sort. Yes, we are trained that at DH you land or missed. But, you have to think in terms of the overall picture. Under any normal IFR (can't think of any other term right now) approach, I would go missed at DH if I couldn't land. Any extenuating circumstances might change my mind there. His point I don't think was meant to be shock value, but more the lesser of two evils. If I am going to crash, better to crash on a runway than the alternative.

It is a teaching technique that might be questionable, to the wrong person. If enough emphasis is placed on landing below mins is a LAST RESORT kind of thing than going missed. The wrong person could interperet that it's ok to go below mins because they've done it under the hood.

 

[nosehair]

Teaching Humans - not monkeys

Didn't mean to scare the crap out of anybody. But I have had the crap scared out of me in over 40 years of flying. If you fly most every day for 40 years and you do it for a living, you will eventually wind up - through no fault of your own - on a final approach for the final time - with no options left, but to land now. Maybe you won't. Maybe your life will be so gifted that you live in a vacuum and no harm will befall you. You may disregard this post. But for those of you who acknowledge being a human being and subject to your own faults as well as those of nature - prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Besides, it is rare that you "break out" in a nice, clean level overcast at two hundred feet. More often than not, on a real, solid IMC approach to minimums, having the runway in sight is "iffy". FAR 91.175(c) lists the things you can see and call it legal. "If you can see...."
So the training for a real continued approach to touchdown is to look up at DH, but continue to maintain localizer and glideslope until the flare. The transition from IMC to VMC comes in flashes and bits. A good way to practice is to fly the glideslope/localizer to the flare. It costs no more to do a few attempts at touching down under the hood. Just my two cents at being a better pilot.
I do not subscribe to the theory that teaching pilots how to deal with unplanned events, such as an ILS to touchdown, will give them ideas about doing it illegally. That will come from their own minds. It's already there.
Do you think that not showing someone how to spin an airplane will keep them from trying it solo? Do you think that keeping a student a little bit afraid of the airplane will keep him safe? Naaa - it doesn't work that way.

 

[labbats]

I teach my students to divide their attention between the localizer and the centerline after DH. I make sure to let them know that some glideslopes are good below DH and some aren't, but all localizers are. Then I discuss doing GUMPSF and holding a controlled descent on down in case of such an emergency.

I can't see any reason to do it for real during training though. Foggles or not.

 

[Lead Sled]

Nosehair...
I like your style. My CFII had a few "tricks" that he made his students do a few during the course of their instrument training. One of his favorite ones was to put the hood on you as soon as you started the engine and you didn't remove it until you were back at the blocks at the completion of the lesson. It was "vectors" out of the ramp and to the runway, followed by an ITO. After the landing it was "vectors" back to the ramp. (I can remember one flight where he had given me a series of very precise heading, altitude, and airspeed changes. He told me to lift the hood out and look outside. We were flying "formation" 100' above the middle of a long freight train out in the Utah desert. After that, I took him very seriously when he told me to hold airspeed, altitude and heading VERY precisely!)

I've made it a point to make sure that all of my instrument student had a few ILS approaches to touchdown prior to their checkride. It's a real confidence booster. Back in my "Air Ambulance" days, our company instructor insisted that we shot a couple of ILS approaches to touchdown under the hood during our 6-month recurrent training. We were flying Mitsubishi MU2s, so it wasn't like you could tell the difference in the smoothness of the landings either.

Now, during our 6 month recurrent sim training we will occassionally do one or two for fun. There are certain emergency scenarios where you're going to put it on the ground regardless of the weather. It's good to have done a time or two before.

Personally, the guys that I really admire are the airline pilots that flew the old "range" approaches down to 200 and 1/2 back in the '30s and 40's. I've seen copies of the old approach plates that those guys used. Now those guys had gonads.
Lead Sled

 

[Znobrdr]

Just have to jump in here.

A couple of thoughts for you. The basics are CRITICAL to your success. I have put through 21 Instrument students and inherited a few of those students from other instructors. Those that were doing approaches before basics were solid have spent somewhere between 10 to 15 more hours to get the rating. That's expensive!

The other thing I consistently see is that those with solid basic skills can fly an approach like an autopilot all the way to the bottom at the end of the program. The difference is incredible! Get the basics, and get them solid! The first couple approaches that I do with students is WITHOUT the hood. Why? So you can better visualize what an approach looks like. So your situational awarness is greater. So you get a sense of the wind effects. What's happening and why.

On average my students end up with 7 to 10 hours of actual before the check ride. Benefits of East coast training I guess. No actual until the basics are ready though. I help alot the first time or two in actual because its a handfull for most.

I have always said instrument training can really test your landing skills. I have said this for awhile now and usually get some strange looks but it makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Typical 172 newbie private pilot final approach speed is 65 knots. Instrument approach speed 90 kts. Ok, foggles off and WHOAAAAA!!!!!!! Freak out time! IT NEVER LOOKED LIKE THIS BEFORE, right?

Just remember don't rush the landing. The approach is a little different than you are used too. Bring the power back, bring in the flaps, keep the approach angle to the runway, let the speed come off and be a bit patient. Getting the power out (smoothly I might add) is the key.

Enjoy your training! Glean all you can from it. Never be afraid to change instructors if needed. Remember its your money! Your training! Most of all your safety and that of your potential passengers.