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Instrument Help

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wessidmike

Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Posts
15
Bad news for me, my instrument checkride was scheduled for tomarrow (tuesday 4th) well today Monday I went for my "last flight" and it was 102 degrees as we were taking off... Don't fly from Brown to Galespie on a instrument training lesson in 100 degree wheather. Anyway the combination of heat, turbulence and being under that hood, din't make for a very precise flight, combined with getting airsick means i get to do a few more flights before we schedule my instrument checkride again :(. I've never been airsick before, and i used to fly overseas all the time with my dad as a kid.

Anyone have any Instrument tips... My problem isn't in interpreting the instruments, it's remembering to start my time at the FAF and holding the +100 -0 altitude standards. I feel like i'm always behind the airplane once established on final..... Today i forgot to start the time at that FAF twice, and i felt like i was behind the airplane most of the flight!!! any tips would be greatly apreciated
 
wessidmike said:
Bad news for me, my instrument checkride was scheduled for tomarrow (tuesday 4th) well today Monday I went for my "last flight" and it was 102 degrees as we were taking off... Don't fly from Brown to Galespie on a instrument training lesson in 100 degree wheather. Anyway the combination of heat, turbulence and being under that hood, din't make for a very precise flight, combined with getting airsick means i get to do a few more flights before we schedule my instrument checkride again :(. I've never been airsick before, and i used to fly overseas all the time with my dad as a kid.

Anyone have any Instrument tips... My problem isn't in interpreting the instruments, it's remembering to start my time at the FAF and holding the +100 -0 altitude standards. I feel like i'm always behind the airplane once established on final..... Today i forgot to start the time at that FAF twice, and i felt like i was behind the airplane most of the flight!!! any tips would be greatly apreciated

Lots of people come up with accronyms for instrument flying. For example:

WIRE check:
Weather
Instrument (Flight instruments)
Radios
Environment (Look over the approach)

For the "Radios" portion of the WIRE check, do GLAD M:
Glideslope
Localizer
ADF
DME
Marker Beacons
Some of these don't apply depending on the approach that you are flying. For example, a VOR approach doesn't have a glideslope obviously, so ignore that portion of the accronym. Substitute a correctly set VOR inbound heading for the localizer portion.

For each radio that you set, do TITS:
Tune
Identify - Listen to the radio
Twist - VOR, heading bug, etc.
Set - Just make sure that everything is set properly

At each point that you must make a turn during the approach, do the 5 Ts:
Turn - Turn the aircraft
Time - Start the time, if you're doing compass/timed turns
Twist - Twist any VOR/heading bugs
Throttle - Climb or descend (using throttle) if necessary
Talk - State your position or intentions, especially if on a CTAF

Finally, at the FAF:
Time down - Start the time
Gear down - If applicable
Go down - Start descending
Lights up - Turn on all lights on the aircraft and click the approach lights up if pilot controlled lighting.

I say these each time I fly an approach. It keeps me out of trouble. Hope that helps.
 
Sorry to hear that you got sick. Don't worry, it can happen to any pilot or person!

As far as forgeting to set your time at the FAF try this. Do you do an approach briefing before you start the approach? You can do a quick approach briefing before you start the approach and in that process set the missed approach time in your timer. So that it countdowns the time. If you do this at least you are thinking about starting your time well before you need to. So, when you pass your final approach fix you just hit the start button.

As far as being behind the airplane try this. Ask your self this simple question anytime you are not doing something. "What could I do next". And dont stop asking your self that question until you find out what you should be doing next. Is it setting the radios, IDing the stations, setting up your timer, checking the engine gauges, etc.

Also, this is YOUR checkride. You are the star for that flight. There is NO need to rush the flight along. If you are feeling rushed into an approach. Break it off! Do it again. Say you did not feel comfortable doing that approach because you are rushed. That is good judgement and it will get you a fresh start on a new app. Of course, if you just went missed at your destination, flew to your alt and are starting your app there that might be a bad time to do that :)

Good luck with your checkride!
 
Great advice...
this is another thing that happened and was wondering if anyone had a solution... I know instructors love to throw stuff at you at the worst possible moment, like going missed approach out of gillespie and then pulling a partial pannel while trying to set up a GPS approach into montgomery which is like 15 miles away... I'm haveing a real hard time with keeping the airplane trimmed and on coarse especially partial pannel, while also setting up the next approach in that short span of time.... I seriously feel overwhelmed and it feels like my brain slows down. Mean while my scan has to pick up..... Is it just me or does this take allot of time to get used to.

I'm probably at 55 hours into my instrument rating and 107 hours TT, and i'm worried that i'm taking to long and too much money on this rating.... At what point would you get worried about whether flying is "for you". I love flying and i'm looking twards it as being my career. I just don't want to be strugling my whole career.

I think i just need some incouragement, cause after todays flight i'm very disscouraged
 
Just remember this.

When you get your instrument rating you have proved that you can perform to the bare mins. You are not expected to be some 135 single pilot ifr king the next day after you get your rating.

Getting good takes time and experience. And your rating gives you the privledge to do that.

Wankel
 
Unless you are 141 (which it doesn't sound like), you will need 250 hours till commercial anyway. Have some fun and relax!

Alot of the guys here memorize the approaches into all the nearby airports. I can give you any piece of information on any of the approaches to the airport here, and the 3 other nearest airports. If you know who your DE is, then your CFI should know what airports the DE goes to and memorize those. It's not required, but being able to fly the approach without looking at the chart other than for show helps the approach start off on the right foot.

If you truely got airsick, telling your DE that you are not feeling well might let you off the hook until another day (depends on how a55holish they are) when it is cooler/earlier in the day before the sun gets into effect too much. If you are ready to puke, there is no way in hell you are going to be able to shoot a partial panel NDB down to mins. Also remember that if this was true IFR, you wouldn't probibly be shooting approaches while not feeling well and would ask for radar vectors to some VFR weather.

You got unlucky and had a bad day, it happens to the best of us. Get the 3 hours of recurrency training and kick that Practical tests' ass.
 
Five Ts and checkitis

I agree with the suggestion about using the five Ts. I always taught use of the five Ts over any kind of fix.

Keep your cross-check going. It's sometimes better to stay slightly high at an MDA than to hold to try to hold altitude with test pilot precision.

Finally, maybe you should consider postponing the practical for a time and taking a sim or two and a flight to ensure you have nailed down the concept of starting time at the FAF. It sounds as if you don't quite have the primacy of it yet.

Good luck with your ride.
 
wessidmike said:
holding the +100 -0 altitude standards. I feel like i'm always behind the airplane once established on final..... Today i forgot to start the time at that FAF twice, and i felt like i was behind the airplane most of the flight!!! any tips would be greatly apreciated

This sounds like a TRIM problem.

If you get your pitch trim set properly for whatever IAS you're planning to use, altitude control is simply a matter of throttle and flap movement (assuming you're in a fixed gear a/c).

Pitch trim is half the battle in instrument flying. If it's not set so that you can let go of the yoke without a pitch change, you're fighting all the way.

Good Luck!
 
wessidmike said:
Anyone have any Instrument tips... My problem isn't in interpreting the instruments, it's remembering to start my time at the FAF and holding the +100 -0 altitude standards. I feel like i'm always behind the airplane once established on final..... Today i forgot to start the time at that FAF twice, and i felt like i was behind the airplane most of the flight!!! any tips would be greatly apreciated
When things get rushed, the first thing to go is a good, basic instrument scan. In any instrument scan, approximately 80% of your time will be spent looking at CONTROL instruments. If you don't know right off the top of your head what those instruments are, then we've already found a place to work.

You have in your hands the most important of all the knobs, switches, and levers in the entire airplane. The yoke (or stick) and the power controls determine where your airplane will go, and how fast it will get there. The Instruments that correspond to your hands are the attitude indicator and the power gauges. (I've used generic terms because the concepts apply to any combination of types of controls - yoke/stick, throttle, power lever, whatever). 80% of your crosscheck should be devoted to those instruments. A quick exercise: stop and count to 5 several times. As you count, imagine staring at your attitude indicator (artificial horizon, whatever you want to call it) as you count 1,2,3,4 and then look at some other instrument when you say 5. Start over. Don't look at anything other than your attitude unless you're on the 5th count. By the third time through, you're dying to look at something else before you get to 5, right? Well, as you're looking at the attitude indicator through 2, 3, and 4, think to yourself "Based on where I am right now, and what I want to do next, what is the NEXT most important thing for me to see - - what do I want to look at next?" Now you've prioritized in your mind what you should do when it gets to 5. So, when it gets to 5, look at that instrument, take a mental snapshot of it (don't stare at it, or stagnate on it), and as you begin your count 1, 2, ... again, analyze what you just saw, and take whatever action you need to in order to make that item better.

Example:
1 - (holding the attitude for level flight)
2 - I wonder how my airspeed is doing?
3 - My course is more important, or is it my altitude?
4 - My altitude has been shaky; I'll look at that next
5- Looking at altitude - - MENTAL SNAPSHOT

1 - I didn't take time to interpret the whole instrument, but the needle was to the right of the 0 at the top of the case - - I'm a skosh high
2 - Shucks, perhaps I should have looked at the V V I - - I feel like I'm level, though
3 - I'll look at the V V I next time, but for now let me lower the nose a half degree
4 - There, that's a half degree lower - - better pull the throttle back a half hair, too, to keep the airspeed the same
5 - Looking at V V I - - MENTAL SNAPSHOT

1 - That showed a slight descent - - that's what I want
2 - holding that pitch - - I think I'll trim off the pressure on the yoke
3 - releasing pressure - - the yoke moved, gotta trim some more
4 - reset the attitude - - I'll look at the altitude again to check my progress
5 - Looking at altitude - - MENTAL SNAPSHOT

1 - yea, that was easing back towards the zero - - I like that
2 - releasing pressure on the yoke again - - yes, that's better - - all trimmed now
3 - I better check the heading this time; it's been a few cycles since I checked it last
4 - wings are level, goooooood
5 - looking at heading - MENTAL SNAPSHOT

1 - OK, heading was 2 degrees off what I thought we had set, let me roll into 2 degrees of bank to fix that
2 - keeping the nose level, rolling into bank, SET the picture
3 - having it trimmed makes this easier -- not having to push or pull this time
4 - better check the airspeed this time; it's been a while
5 - looking at airspeed - - MENTAL SNAPSHOT

Well, I'm sure you're quite bored of all this by now, but you probably understand a little of what I'm trying to say. You discipline yourself to do the most important things first, and prioritize the other things. When you set a control instrument, you should be setting a specific PICTURE on the attitude indicator, or a specific POWER SETTING on the gauge - - RPM, pressure, N1, EPR - - whatever the measure is -- a SPECIFIC number. You're not going to just pull a little more, or push a little less, or push the throttle in a tad, or pull it back a hair - - you're going to set a specific picture - - the one that you know will give you level flight, or 300 fpm descent, or whatever it is you want to achieve. And you're going to set the exact power setting that you know will give you 105 knots straight and level at 3000', or 500 fpm descent, or whatever you desire to achieve. If you don't know exactly, take a guess, estimate based on what you DO know, and if it works, remember it for next time. Next time, as you approach the point where you want to begin a 500 fpm descent, you'll be thinking ahead - "When I get to this point, I'll be setting X on my power gauge." If it turns out it doesn't work out exactly the same - - maybe it's warmer today - - you'll make adjustments, but at least they'll be smaller adjustments, and you won't have to chase it as much. Remember - - SET power, SET pitch, SET bank -- none of this push, pull, lean, hope stuff anymore!

Airspeed, heading, V V I - - those are all performance instruments - - they tell you what the airplane is doing - - or, to be more accurate, since they lag, they tell you what the airplane WAS doing - - I think of them as HISTORY instruments. If you spend your time chasing your performance instruments - - if you spend your time chasing your HISTORY - - you'll only frustrate yourself. Incorporate them into your crosscheck only to refine what you're doing with the controls.

Of course, in the instrument environment, you'll also be concerned with the third type of instruments - - Navigation instruments. Obviously you will incorporate those into your cross check as appropriate for the type of procedure you're flying, and the point along that procedure where you find yourself. But the fundamentals of the CONTROL-PERFORMANCE concept of instrument flying remain the same - - focus primarily on the controls - - the HISTORY will follow.

CHAIRFLYING can be an invaluable tool in mastering these skills. Take a piece of paper and write down a general sequence of events for a possible instrument flight scenario. Take your last flight, for example. You took off from point A, you went here, you flew this approach, you did this, you did that. Now, plant yourself in a chair and imagine yourself in the cockpit. Walk through every step of the way just as if you're in the airplane. Pull out the charts and brief the approach. Plan the sequence of specific steps in your mind. PRACTICE your cross check. Keep asking yourself, "WHAT's the most important thing to be looking at NOW - - and what's the NEXT thing I want to be doing?" Rehearsal pays dividends both in enhancement of skills, and in savings of actual flight hours - - i.e., MONEY. If you think it's boring, start counting the dollars you're saving.

(I got too longwinded - - gotta split this in 2 parts…)
 
Re: Instrument Help - Part II

(Continued)

NOW, one more thing and I'll be done. About this timing thing...

Someone has already suggested the "5 T's". While I learned and taught the "SIX T's", I'll grant that the "5 T's" does the same thing. I will strongly suggest, though, that you make the FIRST T TIME.

TIME, TURN, THROTTLE, TWIST, TRACK, TALK is what I learned, and it seems easier for me to say - - it has a neat rhythm. :)

TIME, TURN, THROTTLE,

TWIST, TRACK, TALK


TIME - - well, you know this one - - it's the one you keep forgetting! :) If you make this the FIRST THING you think about every time you reach an action point, you're likely to start remembering - - a good thing!

TURN - - set your CONTROL instrument (the attitude indicator - set a specific picture) - - to turn to the heading that you THINK will get you where you want to go next. This may be the same heading that you were on, so there will be no turn, but you're developing a habit pattern that will be universally applicable - - there will be a time when a turn is appropriate, and you'll already have the habit to cover it

THROTTLE - - set the CONTROL instrument (the throttle - set a specific power setting) to establish the descent rate you think you will need. Sometimes, it will mean no changes - - perhaps you're already descending, or perhaps you need to remain level. In any case, you've again developed a habit pattern to make you think about the most important things first

TWIST - - set the course or heading bug or whatever else you have to the intended course or heading for the new leg of the procedure you're flying. Most often, it's the same course you've been on, but it could be different. Once again, your well-established habit pattern covers all the possibilities, and you've saved the Navigation instruments for last

TRACK - - verify that your airplane is tracking along the course or heading you intended. As this is a performance issue, you've saved it 'til near the end of this little ditty. Checking it earlier would have been futile. Make any adjustments to your CONTROL instruments to fine-tune your track

TALK - - always the last priority (AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE) Once you've got the airplane headed where it needs to go, key the mike and make the appropriate radio call, if there IS an appropriate radio call. Obviously, this one will be omitted more times than not, but again - - the habit pattern works everywhere.


That seems like an awful lot of typing to address two little problems - - altitude control and remembering to time - - but you have to realize that those problems are symptomatic of more fundamental concerns, and those are the concerns I tried to address. Getting the most important things first should free up more time to start thinking as you go along what you should be doing next. You want to get to the point where you are thinking as much about where the airplane will be 30 seconds from now as you are thinking about where it is right now. Where it was 30 seconds AGO should NEVER enter your mind - - there's not a SINGLE thing you can do to change that. SO, if you make a mistake (and you will - - we all do), forget about it - - concentrate on how to do it right NOW, and plan for the immediate future.


Best of luck to you !

Apologies for the length - - but I hope some of it helps.
 
t's 5-6-7 etc...

Good advice everyone. I'm gonna go ahead and throw another "T" in to the mix TRIM!

When you change your throttle setting, you will very likely have to reset the trim. If you enter holding and need to hold altitude, trim the nose up as you reduce the throttle. If you are at the FAF or GS intercept, then you probably don't need to retrim, because your goal is to lose altitude.

I've seen many students start a slow descent due to improper trimming.

Time, talk, turn, twist, throttle, trim, track! I'm sure that there are more:)
 
Re: t's 5-6-7 etc...

Northern Lights said:
Good advice everyone. I'm gonna go ahead and throw another "T" in to the mix TRIM!

When you change your throttle setting, you will very likely have to reset the trim.
My thought process on this is you're usually changing the throttle for an altitude or descent rate, and rarely for an airpseed change - - at least as far as these action points are concerned. You'll slow for holding 3 minutes beforehand, you'll slow to configure as you approach a fix, etc., but rarely slow AT a point.

80% of your crosscheck being on the CONTROL instruments, you'll be thinking about trimming off the pressures to HOLD THE PICTURE. Besides, every heartbeat reminds me to trim - - TRIM is your friend. You should ALWAYS be trimming! ! :) :D


Did I say TRIM is a good thing?
 
I find that if I am rushed, I do not have the airplane set up correctly, and therefore I am not doing a STABILIZED approach. Trim is a key element of stabilized. Watch your speed. A slower plane is easier to fly than a fast plane. In other words, if you have always practiced at X kts, and now you are doing X+10, everything will be out of synch.

In my plane, stabilized approach is flown at 110 - 120. If I don't do things correctly, I can easily end up at 140, and that makes it more difficult, because now all the timing is off, all the elements happen faster.

The secret is realizing when you are in control, and going missed if you are not. Nothing wrong with going missed, it is far better than going dead.
 
After receiving high marks on a partial panel VOR approach on Saturday my instructor gave me the ok to schedule my checkride, which is scheduled for May 17th. Partial panel was my one sticking point as well. Not holding heading or altitude in cruise, but doing partial panel hold entries. My biggest issue was that I would try to remember the heading I wanted to turn to, but in some cases I would confuse it with the number of degrees I needed to turn. This was because I wasn't writing the starting and ending headings down. And although I'm an engineer, I would often get brain freeze dividing by three in the plane. So I created a little card with heading changes and the times to free up a few brain cycles if I needed it.

I also agree with using the 5-Ts, but I usually like to Twist while Turning, since I'm turning the plane I may as well turn the OBS at the same time.

Dave
 
Control-performance v. primary-supporting

For the benefit of the original poster, I'll come to the point immediately. Along with the five Ts and its variants discussed above, set the pitch you want on the AI, set the power you want on your power instruments, and trim well. Concentrate primarily on maintaining exact pitch on the AI while you interrogate the other instruments for performance information.

Now for the dissertation.

There are two main schools of thought for instrument flying. The FAA preaches primary and supporting. I will not launch into a full explanation of it except that the FAA believes there are instruments that give you primary information for regimes of flight, with other instruments confirming the primary reading. You can read up on it in your Instrument Flying Handbook. You d@mn well better before the practical because your examiner will grill you on it, guaranteed. Not only that, when you go for your CFI-I your examiner will really grill you on it.

The idea of primary and supporting is to provide reliable information at all times, and especially if and when you lose instruments. Primary and supporting works fine in a Cessna. It is not how you fly high-performance (i.e. turbine) equipment.

Control-performance emphasizes the attitude indicator and the power gauges. It is very simple. First off, you have to know the pitch, power and trim settings for a condition of flight (you should know these, too, for primary-supporting). Then, to set up a condition of flight, set the required pitch angle on the AI along with power, and trim well.

Your primary focus is the attitude indicator. You strive to hold pitch as steady as possible. The AI is the hub; the other instruments in the six-pack are monitoring instruments for your performance.

Control-performance is how you fly high-performance equipment; why do you think that an AI on turbine equipment is so large in comparison to the other five instruments in the six-pack? Because pitch angles are critical for flying turbine equipment and must be set precisely.

As an experiment, have your instructor take you on an instrument flight. First set up good, well-trimmed normal straight-and-level cruise. Your instructor should cover all the instruments except the AI and the power gauges. Keep the points of the pointers against each other and the wings level. You will be surprised at how closely you held held heading and altitude simply with the AI!

Same for turns. Set up on the AI the correct bank angle for standard rate and hold it. Then look at your turn coordinator. Once more, you will be surprised at how accurate your bank is.

We taught control-performance to our Alitalia students at FlightSafety because that's how Alitalia teaches. After all, we were training future DC-9 pilots and not Piper drivers. I covered instruments and did everything I wrote about above, and it just blew my mind as to how accurate my students would fly after this training. We did vertical-Ss and all the patterns this way. And we trained some excellent instrument pilots.

You still need to know primary-supporting to help you with instrument interpretation and to help your visualize your airplane. But control-performance is how you should really fly the airplane, despite what the FAA might say.

Hope this helps some more. Once again, good luck with your instrument practical.
 
worried about whether flying "for you"

Wessidmike instruments are tough that's why alot of privates don't do it. If you are thinking of making it a career choice practice makes perfect. Trim will solve alot of your problems. Also look at your approach plate while TRIMMED and go top to bottom with all the info (IT'S ALL RIGHT THERE) freq, course, time, alt..etc..Bobbysamd has good advice too, and says it perfectly....Good luck
 
wessidmike said:
I'm probably at 55 hours into my instrument rating and 107 hours TT, and i'm worried that i'm taking to long and too much money on this rating.... At what point would you get worried about whether flying is "for you". I love flying and i'm looking twards it as being my career. I just don't want to be strugling my whole career.

107 hours? that is not too long by any stretch of the imagination. I wish I would've gotten my training done that quickly. Remember, everyone learns at a different pace. Don't rush it. Its not a contest to see who can do it in the least number of hours.
 

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