Initial CFI question?

[FlyingToIST]

Can you get your CFII as the initial CFI? If so , would you still need a complex aircraft to get it?

Thanks..

 

[cfdoubleeye]

I believe it is possible to take the ride as a combined CFI/CFII, however it still requires two 8710 forms and therefore your examiner will likely charge you the same as two rides. What you risk is a bust on both rides.... go with the normal routine and schedule one after the other.

As my old Chief Pilot told me once: "Boy you got more balls than brains!"

 

[Kream926]

yes you can take you II as your initial

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yup, you can take your initial CFI ride for the CFI-I instaed of the CFI-A and you don't need a complex airplane to do it.

The airplane you need is based on the PTS for the ride you take. You won't see any "complex" tasks in the double-I PTS.

 

[FlyingToIST]

Thanks all.. We had an issue with our complex aircraft that is going to keep her down for almost a month. I have 3 CFI candidates and I was hoping that I can get them to do the initial CFI as II.

 

[SPilot]

Remember that you need spin training even if its CFII...anything initial needs spin training... Somehow I showed up for my initial without spin training endorsement!

 

[nosehair]

anything initial needs spin training

Nope, you don't need spin training, or a complex, those are required for a Flight Instructor - Airplane rating.
FAR 61.183(i) "...for a flight instructor certificate with an airplane or glider rating..."
For the aircraft needed for the checkride, look in the front of the appropriate PTS.

 

[SPilot]

Nope, you don't need spin training, or a complex, those are required for a Flight Instructor - Airplane rating.
FAR 61.183(i) "...for a flight instructor certificate with an airplane or glider rating..."
For the aircraft needed for the checkride, look in the front of the appropriate PTS.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I did MEI initial. Thats why

 

[midlifeflyer]

I agree with you nosehair, although I'm a bit concerned that since 61.183(i) says "an airplane..rating," and the CFII is a CFI with an "instrument airplane" rating, it could easily be interpreted (or misinterpreted) on the operational level so that the spin endorsement is required.

That's especially true with the issue about whether a CFII with only an instrument airplane rating may teach instruments in an airplane being the mess that it is. If he bottom line ends up being that a CFI-Instrument Airplane alone entitles an instructor to teach instruments in an airplane, it's not much of a stretch to say that the spin endorsement requirement needs to be met for that rating.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I agree with you nosehair, although I'm a bit concerned that since 61.183(i) says "an airplane..rating," and the CFII is a CFI with an "instrument airplane" rating, it could easily be interpreted (or misinterpreted) on the operational level so that the spin endorsement is required.

That's especially true with the issue about whether a CFII with only an instrument airplane rating may teach instruments in an airplane being the mess that it is. If he bottom line ends up being that a CFI-Instrument Airplane alone entitles an instructor to teach instruments in an airplane, it's not much of a stretch to say that the spin endorsement requirement needs to be met for that rating.

Midlifeflyer is correct. Most examiners will not require a spin endorsement. As a DPE I do not require a spin endorsement for an initial CFI-I checkride but there are other DPE's I know of that think that such an endorsement is necessary. In that case you must go by what they say or find another examiner/FAA inspector.

 

[nosehair]

Midlifeflyer is correct. Most examiners will not require a spin endorsement. As a DPE I do not require a spin endorsement for an initial CFI-I checkride but there are other DPE's I know of that think that such an endorsement is necessary. In that case you must go by what they say or find another examiner/FAA inspector.

Interesting. In this case, there should be no wiggle-room on interpretation. The FAA Inspector's Handbook gives a blow-by-blow description of each step to take in all "Tasks". I don't have one to look at now, but that book should say "Check spin endorsement" on a CFI-A Practical Test, and not on the CFI-I Practical Test. These types of FAA functions are clearly spelled out so that they are standard nationwide.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

These types of FAA functions are clearly spelled out so that they are standard nationwide.

I would appreciate it if you can check this out as to what if anything is stated in the FAA Handbookd on this. But the guidance I have received on this is that the initial CFI-ASE or the CFI-AME require spin endorsement. Ns that the CFI-I(A) does not require a spin endorsement.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Interesting. In this case, there should be no wiggle-room on interpretation.

Unfortunately, "wiggle room" tends to be in the eye of the wiggler.

How many times has Standardization had to remind DPEs that the AIM-approved entries are recommended, not required?

 

[nosehair]

I would appreciate it if you can check this out.

Here is a link to the handbook:
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8400/media/volume5/V5_Toc.pdf
Click on "Eligibility Phase", and I see that a "Job Aid" is used to determine eligibility for each certificate or rating. This Job Aid is on a disc in each FSDO.
That is a change. It used to all be in the book.

You, as a Designated Examiner, should have a Job Aid for each certificate or rating that you are authorized to do. This would tell what is required to be eligible.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

You, as a Designated Examiner, should have a Job Aid for each certificate or rating that you are authorized to do. This would tell what is required to be eligible.

Nosehair:

Thanks for your reply. Actually though, I have never heard of a "Job Aid" and none of my colleagues have either. The only thing we have is the new just off the presses Order 8710.3E Designated Pilot and Flight Engineer Examiner's Handbook, as well as the various PTS's. This new handbook was given to us at the recent annual examiner's meeting. No one mentioned a "Job Aid" at the meeting either.

Please PM me if there is more my colleagues and I should know about the "Job Aids."

 

[MauleSkinner]

I would appreciate it if you can check this out as to what if anything is stated in the FAA Handbookd on this. But the guidance I have received on this is that the initial CFI-ASE or the CFI-AME require spin endorsement. Ns that the CFI-I(A) does not require a spin endorsement.

Interestingly, the student who tried to spin the airplane closest to the ground (400 feet or so) was an instrument student.

My personal opinion, then, is that it SHOULD be required for the CFI-I(A), but I guess opinions are like...

Fly safe!

David

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

My personal opinion, then, is that it SHOULD be required for the CFI-I(A), but I guess opinions are like...

Fly safe!

David

I agree, and I'll go even further to say that spins should be required and tested for the private and done to one turn or even more turns in an aerobatic airplane, but that will never happen.

But as far as getting into a spin during IFR training: Highly unlikely unless the student is given an extreem (too extreem) unusual attitude.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I agree, and I'll go even further to say that spins should be required and tested for the private and done to one turn or even more turns in an aerobatic airplane, but that will never happen.

But as far as getting into a spin during IFR training: Highly unlikely unless the student is given an extreem (too extreem) unusual attitude.

This particular student got a little behind on the approach, and THOUGHT he was doing a slip to landing. Highly entertaining.

Fly safe!

David

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

This particular student got a little behind on the approach, and THOUGHT he was doing a slip to landing. Highly entertaining.

Fly safe!

David

Sounds like this student has big problems!