Indy Air - 5/19 -- 35 Cities

[English]

Sure they are, the long way around.

 

[flyguppy]

Those cities are west of DEN, are they??

Huh? I don't know what you're referring too.




Last edited by flyguppy on 05-23-2004 at 20:20

Thanks.

 

[General Lee]

When I first saw the plan for frequency and cities at Indy (on Yahoo) I was amazed. They planned 12 daily departures to ATL, and 16 to JFK or EWR, and 8 to Lansing, MI.(etc) That would mean there would a heck of a lot of "banks" of airplanes coming in and out of IAD. That is huge, and it will be a great feat if the weather holds up and there aren't a lot of center delays, flow times into NYC, (also to ORD--12 daily, and ATL) etc. I think the reason they think they will make money off of the 86 RJs is if they use them each for 11-13 hours a day---and I just think that will be amazing if they can. Maybe they can--who knows? The incoming A319s will be great for them, but the one thing I see that may not help them much is that they will be using them on longer stage lengths (like to the West Coast, LAS, PHX, etc....) and they will be enroute most of the time. IAD to SAN might take 5 1/2 to 6 hours Westbound--and then 4 1/2 back. That is about 10 hours just for one round trip---low fare----and then it will probably turn around and go back West. They would need a lot of those Airbuses to compete with UAL in IAD---since they already have over 100 of those. So, the RJs will be the real backbone of IAD, and they will have to be flying a lot and there will have to be very little weather or logistical problems for operations to run smoothly and for them to squeeze out a profit. (which will take atleast a year anyways according to Skeen) Will adding all of those other UAL express carriers and the existing UAL flights create some taxi delays or log jams? 16 daily flights from IAD to JFK and EWR? Incredible. I can't wait to see this---it will probably be a unbelieveable feat. Good luck.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[j41driver]

That would mean there would a heck of a lot of "banks" of airplanes coming in and out of IAD.

Our mgmt is saying it will be more of a constant flow of flights rather than "banks" with a lot of down time in between.

 

[PBE]

flyguppy,

Agreed, we are saying the same thing. I belive it started with deregulation and the "invention" of code sharing. You (or at least I think you are saying) belive it started with the RJ.

We at ACA get a little hot under the collar when hit with the we made you, you owe us (aka loyalty) arguements, considering the treatment we have suffered for years under your totally inept management.

I know you guys get hot under the collar when some ACAers blab about "doing in UAL". We both know that ain't gonna happen. I for one think that would not be good for Independence, as it would create such a vacuum of service at IAD that someone much more competitive would enter the hub.

What some folks are missing is our new LCC service is going to focus on medium city high frequency LCC service. You would do best to focus on long haul & international service. Some penny pincher wanting to out & back from IAD to CHS in one day will be riding in my bird. The international traveler from CHO thru IAD to CDG will be on you & UAX. There will be enough market stimulation for both of us to fly full planes. The catch is the prices we are charging will make us money. Can you say the same about UAL's fares?

As for pilot pay, I am truly envious of $180K bus driver pay and hope to get there someday. But, I've also worked construction during furloughs in my younger years and realise that compared to the average american worker I'm doing quite well bringing home low six figures and sitting in air conditioned comfort for my 13 to 15 work days per month.

It is ironic that SWA drivers make more than UAL drivers these days, don't ya think?

If it were up to me we would all make $400K per year and only have to work on Wednesdays. Alas, it's not up to me to decide what the traveler is willing to pay for a seat these days.

 

[General Lee]

j41driver,

That would be better. Apparently that is what we may be working on too at our hubs. I am amazed at your first announcement of flights to ATL, ORD, JFK, EWR, LAN, DTW, etc......

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PBE]

General,

I was amazed as well at the initial cities. Especially ATL as you guys have a constant stream of 73s and 75s on that run! Our marketing brass sez thats where peeps want to go.

My guess is that some of these flights will be replaced by the busses eventually.

Cheers,
PBE

 

[General Lee]

PBE,

It will be interesting to watch us compete with our mainline flights against your RJs initially (then some busses)---and also to have Airtran there along with us. I don't know if we have 12 flights a day between ATL and IAD--but I bet we might start to when you start your indy service. I bet a lot of airlines will compete vigorously against you at the beginning.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[IB6 UB9]

Flyguppy;

For someone who didn't know east from west for 27 minutes are you sure you are qualified to lay the blame on pilots of "other" carriers for your salary cuts? Maybe you could include the economy, your inept management, etc. in your bashing of what may be fellow members of your union group. I find it very hard to believe that a companies fall from $110 per share to bankruptcy in 4 years is due to "pilots of other carriers that are willing to work for less". I think you said it something like that. I remember going to work for a regional airline quite a while back that suddenly had a new paint job with UAL Express on it, some white, some blue. We grew in markets that the mainline carriers pulled out of that had only other major airlines in it. So enlighten me, why did UAL and others pull out of those markets? IMO you can lay as much blame on those pilots as you can the pilots of today...about zero. I laugh when I read posts like amfteamster's, yours, and everyone else's that resort to name calling and blamelaying when the chips are down. Look in the mirror, our company (I am furloughed UAL) was on pace to lose $1B in 2001, this before 911 even happened. But we had a huge contract didn't we! So when you say that "there are pilots willing to work for less blah blah blah" I could just as easily argue that all the things we did in our fight for an industry leading contract actually had a hand in our demise. You see...it sounds just as stupid when you hear it the other way doesn't it. So the next time you go looking down your nose at some of us working for other airlines now you have some things to think about. You make it sound like all narrowbody airbus captains made $180K until the likes of JB, IAir, etc. came along. Hardly. Get off your high horse, and go get a map, if it has an S on the bottom it is probably upside-down!

 

[IB6 UB9]

"I bet a lot of airlines will compete vigorously against you at the beginning."

You bet...or you hope General? Be honest now.

 

[flyguppy]

IB6 UB9,

I don't think I "blamed" anybody for "my" salary cuts. I took what my union gave me in the name of "saving my airline". Who knows if it will be enough. I fully agree that our not flying overtime in the summer of 2000 was counterproductive.

As far as "looking down my nose" at other pilots, I feel I do not. I'm just making an observation. Attack me for my typo all you want, if it makes you feel better. I'll try to make it simple for you.

There are too many people out there that are **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** happy flying jet equipment for sub-standard wages. Period. $120K to fly captain on a 150 pax jet? Or $100K to fly an RJ? These rates would have been laughed at 10 yrs ago.

This has nothing to do with the situation at UAL, or "my salary cuts."

It's about the entire career. 10 years ago, if you listed the top 100 careers (taking everything into account - pay/benfits/time off), I think major airline pilot would have been in the top 5. Now, it'd be lucky to break the top 50, IMO. I'm already established, so I don't see myself changing careers. But if I was just starting my career hunt? There are plenty of other jobs out there in which you can make six figures, have more time off, every night at home, etc.

As far as your furloughed status, look no farther for blame than your own MEC. Giving away the no furlough clause? Great move.
(Gee, didn't work for Delta, did it?)

I didn't call anyone "names", as you stated. Nor do I "look down my nose" at other pilots. Let them fight to get to that "elusive" six figure mark. These days, I'm just saying that's as far as it's going to go.

Best of luck in your future.

 

[IB6 UB9]

I don't blame anyone for the loss of my job...siht happens. Wrong place, wrong time. As far as my MEC goes...well...I'm not going there. I am just extremely happy to have a job doing what I like to do, and I feel for a 4 year old carrier I am compensated adequately for it. Kind of like I was given a second chance. I, like a great many others, just get tired of hearing the likes of you say filth like this:

""Now, why did we pull out of these cities? "We priced ourselves out of the market" I believe you said. And you know what? You're absolutely right. There were PILOTS and at other airlines that were willing to be paid MUCH less to fly these routes for us. Easy decision for airline mgmt. So, mainline pilots lost jobs as a result"

If I read that right it sounds like your view is that mainline pilots lost jobs due to the fact that there were pilots willing to be paid MUCH less to fly these routes for us. Maybe I didn't read it right. I don't remember it that way and you might have a different tone if you weren't so "established" up your seniority list.

We could argue until we are blue in the face about what an adequate pay scale for equipment is. It's hard to justify the levels of the 2000 contract when a company is declaring bankruptcy, IMO. So now what? Maybe we should all quit our fkcunig whining about it and work to get those payscales and lifestyle back...at UAL, JB...everywhere.

 

[flyguppy]

So now what? Maybe we should all quit our fkcunig whining about it and work to get those payscales and lifestyle back...at UAL, JB...everywhere. [/B]

OK, agreed. Question still remains, how?

Don't think airline managments won't look at what has happened in the last 10 years. If you go to them looking for a pay increase.......there are others willing to do the same job for less.

 

[IB6 UB9]

Good question...the million dollar one literally. After going through the "perfect storm" it may take awhile for our industry to claw its way back to the top five of that list you talked about. Believe me, I will do my part. However, I will not take part in another "us versus them" action that bloodies the nose of the very company that signs my paycheck. After sitting in the unemployment line scratching my head I have determined that there must be a better way. I will leave it up to you to decide how to do it at your company but I have an idea what works at mine. (I'm sure I'll get chirped for that statement but whatever.) Something along the lines of doing my part to help them afford to give me a pay raise is what I have in mind.

And good luck to you sir.

 

[General Lee]

IB6 UB9,

I know. Just watch. Every Major and especially UAL will dump everything they can into IAD and dump the fares too. That is the way the Majors seem to treat new comers. Expect Southwest to also do the same with fares from BWI---trying to make it too expensive for the RJs at IAD to compete with the 737s at BWI. But don't worry, I bet Indy will avoid IAD to LGB---you get to continue your monopoly on that route....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

AMFteamster:

The RJ thing has been going round and round on a ton of threads for a while.

The 737 and the DC-9 were designed as Regional Jets, and now jets of 100 seats or so are considered non-regional jets, so I think we don't need to criticize people at airlines who have them. Since IndyAir is buying A-320 sized-jets, I think having them on the major board is no big deal.

I don't see what the difference is between a -190 and a -9 or a -717 as far as "RJ" vs. "Major" jet. They all seat about the same number of people.

Flyguppy:

The pay thing is all relative. Relative to most of America, basically ALL captains and also FOs at most airlines are at least middle-class, if not wealthy, compared to most Americans, and compared to everyone on the planet they are very rich. Do you own a car? If so, you are rich. There are millions and millions of families who will never, ever be able to afford a car.

I have a college degree+, and have worked at 6 full-time jobs, including being a military officer, and I've never made over $48K/year.

Making $120K and being gone 18 days/month, in addition to being able to fly sounds awesome to me! I hope to one day make over $150K, but sometimes I realize that this goal is kind of ridiculous, when their are entire families trying to live on less than $1K/year.

What you're talking about is Regulation vs. Deregulation. Those large salaries were made possible by Regualtion, and now that Deregulation has hit, economic realities have come to the airline business. An airline seat is a commodity, and all the airlines are able to get now is commodity pricing for them.

People new to the IndyAir idea:
They were Atlantic Coast Airlines, and flew feed for both UAL (jets and props) and Delta (jets). Delta is taking back the DO-328 jets and I believe flying them out of CLE? CVG? with Skyway (the Midwest Airlines-owned feeder) doing the flying for Delta.

ACA is changing names to IndyAir are starting out on their own with 50-seat CRJs and they are buying Airbus A-320 family aircraft. Their hub is IAD and they just started selling seats as IndyAir. They own the gates at IAD.

Question: I read that, basically, IndyAir is planning on flying the same number of flights in/out of IAD as they are doing now as ACA. I also read that UAL says it will replace ALL of their IAD feed.

How is this going to work? Are there enough gates for IndyAir AND UAL? Is UAL buying/leasing a bunch of gates? Will IAD be able to handle the added traffic of both IndyAir and a complete UAL feed? I read that AWAC will be opeing IAD as a pilot base. I think that some other feeder will be necessary, as I don't think AWAC can handle the same number of flights that ACA did unless they grew explosively.

Peace,

Cliff
MCI

PS-I hope we can Jumpseat on U guys. My friend commutes to GSP, and it looks like ya'll will fly from DTW-GSP via IAD. Good luck 2 U!

 

[T-Bags]

People new to the IndyAir idea:They were

Yup Indy "was" ACA. So lets look at ACA

From www.DOT.gov

For march 2004

12 month on-time rate: 17/17, and before you blame it on the government and the busy airspace, the late departures due to flow were lower than UAL, CAL, DAL, and NWA. most common reason? Late arriving jet. Yeah that 20-30 minute turn is gonna rock

Number of scheduled flights late over 80% of the time: 9 of the 19 reported for ALL airlines.

Airline with highest pecent of flights late 70% of the time (next closest had a rate LESS THAN HALF of ACA's)

Flight Cancellation Rate: 2nd highest (Thanks Eagle!!!) over 4X the DAL and UAL rate.

Lost Bags: 19/19 for a total of 12.27 per 1000 (UAL 3.64, Wn 3.08) But hey, it's getting BETTER!! Jan-Mar 14.7!!!

Customer complaints Jan-Mar: 19/19 (ie HIGHEST)

CASM: 16.5 cents a mile
Fuel: 3.1 cents a mile
Wages: 4.6 cents a mile
Rent AND depreciations: 3.4 cents a mile. Even if you DOUBLED jet productivity, CASM STILL 14.8 cents a mile!!
And oh yeah, thats WITHOUT HAVING TO SELL A SINGLE TICKET. Wonder how much commisions, ect will run...

A sure winner. The low fare crowd would NEVER drive to BWI for a ticket at HALF the price.

 

[climbhappy]

are the shuttle saabs going to replace the j41s on those given routes one for one? Has united announced any new plans to match the indy air route structure?

 

[PBE]

How is this going to work? Are there enough gates for IndyAir AND UAL? Is UAL buying/leasing a bunch of gates? Will IAD be able to handle the added traffic of both IndyAir and a complete UAL feed? I read that AWAC will be opeing IAD as a pilot base. I think that some other feeder will be necessary, as I don't think AWAC can handle the same number of flights that ACA did unless they grew explosively.

Peace,

Cliff
MCI

PS-I hope we can Jumpseat on U guys. My friend commutes to GSP, and it looks like ya'll will fly from DTW-GSP via IAD. Good luck 2 U!

Cliff,
ACA controls the A gates at IAD and will use them and the east end of B terminal (ajacent) for Independence Air. UAL is scrambling to place a commuter terminal on the southwest F ramp for their replacement service.

Independence and the FAA have been doing the press release dance and lobbying congress for more funding to help ATC & TSA handle the increased flying. We will see how it works later, but one thing is we won't have banks but a steady flow of arivals & departures.

In addition to ARW's return (ARW started UAX at IAD in 1986 = I was there and flew the first flight) there will also be shuttle america, republic, mesa & tran states in IAD. Should be fun to watch. I hear Delta ground services will run the ramp for all of them.

ACA/Independence has an open/unlimited jumpseat policy. After all revenue & nonrev standbys are boarded, any and all open seats can be given away by the captain to qualified jumpseaters. Of course the TSA may/may not someday allow you to sit up front & chat.

Welcome aboard...

PBE

 

[PBE]

Re: People new to the IndyAir idea:They

Yup Indy "was" ACA. Wonder how much commisions, ect will run...

A sure winner. The low fare crowd would NEVER drive to BWI for a ticket at HALF the price.

Yo teabags, good partial research there buddy.

First, all those delays and complaints are from our ORD flights. Ever go to ORD? It is pretty busy, and to top it all UAL controls the arrivals for their code there. They have been delaying & cancelling our flights to make theirs run smoother. It's their right to do so and quite frankly if I had to choose between an international 747 or an RJ from BTV I would do the same.

As for commisions: Zip, nada, zilch. You have to go to our web site to book: www.flyi.com

We will also take your call at 800-fly-flyi but that will cost you $5 extra for your ticket. We will tell you that right up front. It costs us about 5 cents to use our web site.

Lastly, have you ever driven the Capital Beltway around the north side of DC? It's a friggin parking lot during the rush hours and dangerous 24/7. We are betting the fine folks in northern VA will pay about $20 to avoid that mess.

Our fares will make money for us with a reasonable load factor. Everybody is matching us, but are they going to make any money doing so?

Thanks for your concerns & comments.

Come see us later this summer.

PBE