In defence of SkyWest Pilots

[strega7]

Your excuses are really cute but you did accept the rates, you have not yet gotten your 70 rates maybe in part because you are unable to unionize and speak up for yourselves. Maybe if you all grew a pair, stopped believing everything you were told and got a clue things would be different. Until such a time you people are one small step short of a scab.

This from a guy with 3 posts? Registered this month? Get real.

 

[CFIT]

Jon:
I posted this on the DL TA thread as well:

Quote:
Jon:
I only keep bringing it up, becuase of a POS like CFIT who seems to "get off" on the demise of the DL pilots. Then No Delay chimes in.....Well, my patience has warn out with these types.
I guess its ok for you guys to take a "18 month" pay freeze (BTW its now April 2006, nearly 4 1/2 years later), but when the DL pilots do it, its that we have "no balls." Its not a slam at the SKY pilot group in general (te he), but towards your loudmouth spokespeople like cfit! Sorry if it comes off as offensive towards the pilot group in general (oh brother)!
Why is it when concessions happen at that person's airline, there is every justification, but when it happens at DL, its just too easy to take a cheap shot. I guess we (the DL pilot group) are the group everyone loves to hate. Its also a lot easier to blame us for their problems.
Regards,
737


Really it's just to piss off people, like you 73, which is really easy to do .

As been said many times, the typical DAL arrogance, is what turns turns many against you. Just because I make more than you doesn't mean you have to be so angry. Or is it other "shortcomings" with yourself that make you lose your patience so easily? GFYS

Say- wouldn't it be GFY? Or maybe where you live, it's spelled your self- I'don't know. Back to topic- fellows, isn't ANYTHING out of bounds for some of you? Anybody who has to stoop to insulting someone's spouse or their family, is either on the losing side of an issue or simply devoid of logic and the ability to debate. If the latter is the case, please don't contribute here because it's all debate. But for now, take 3 days off for being crass about someone else's spouse.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Hey ,

You are sure taking a lot of crap from these guys at PFT airlines. Yeah that's right although I'm sure some of them might have been in high school when their pilot groups rolled over on PFT. Too bad they don't know the history of their own pilot groups and the disastrous trend they set for the industry when those now senior guys waltzed in with a $12,000 check from mommy and daddy. Some of us remember those days. Yep I recall doing the 135 freight gig because I was wasn't one of the ones buying a job. I knew guys back then that had over 2000 hours of dual given and another few thousand of 135 time that couldn't get a job because of a seemingly endless supply of guys with enough cash to buy a job. Don't let them talk to you about lowering the bar. They wouldn't recognize the bar if it fell on their head.

No names please

 

[everyonedoa360]

Hey Jon Rivoli,

You are sure taking a lot of crap from these guys at PFT airlines. Yeah that's right although I'm sure some of them might have been in high school when their pilot groups rolled over on PFT. Too bad they don't know the history of their own pilot groups and the disastrous trend they set for the industry when those now senior guys waltzed in with a $12,000 check from mommy and daddy. Some of us remember those days. Yep I recall doing the 135 freight gig because I was wasn't one of the ones buying a job. I knew guys back then that had over 2000 hours of dual given and another few thousand of 135 time that couldn't get a job because of a seemingly endless supply of guys with enough cash to buy a job. Don't let them talk to you about lowering the bar. They wouldn't recognize the bar if it fell on their head.

GOOD POINT Dave,

Me too, I would not pay 10K for a 135 letter in an EMB110 (and for all you experienced pilots who don't know what an EMB110 is, I'm sure you know everything else) back in the early 90s, but now WE are showing the bad way??? Please, Why is it every airline that has a union right now is taking cuts? But Skywest, it's not taking pay cuts, but we should vote a union in? How many of you pilots posting here paid for a job back in the 90s??????? Lots of you most likely. From the great, loud Comair pilots, to the ASA pilots, to Airlink pilots, you all paid for your F job!!!! Because believe me, I WAS around back in the early 90s to know WHAT YOUR Pilot group started! And still, where are you now??? Bitching about a pilot group that took a little faith
in it's managment. Ya it's 100% wrong that we have not got a pay increase, but you can all kiss my fat A$$ before I give a crap about what you think. Were are you after all, I had choice were to go, so did you. Nice move!

 

[Tomct]

Dave...it is just like you to pull that PFT crap out! Don't side step the REAL issue of this thread. ASA NEVER took pay cuts or freezes for promised aircraft, we told them to piss off and we STILL got the airplanes. Most others caved like a house of cards with exception of a few good regionals out there!

And Dave, your dream job is probably to go work for SWA...oh wait, that is not the same as PFT.....RIIIIIIIIIGHT!! Jack Ass!

 

[Tomct]

Jon...don't try to make yourself feel better with some lame drawn out reason WHY you HAD to take the same rates. Because we all know that it is one HUGE load of SH@T. I know that most of you got the SJS and could not wait to get those aircraft on property. Just admit that you guys need to grow a pair and get the UNION on property!

For those that you say are happy to have recieved the 70's due to ASA, CARMA can be a REAL BIOTCH!! Get ready BOYZ!!

 

[AuburnRedneck9]

This from a guy with 3 posts? Registered this month? Get real.

The only reason that you are brining it up is because you can't offer a single response as to why your pilot group is a total failure and I know personally because I once worked for Skywest, probably long before your time. And don't you dare blame your common rates on UAL's financial troubles. Plain and simple, it is your pilot groups inability to stand up to management in part because you can't you'd be terminated and you full well know it. Until ALPA or any other labor union comes on the property you will remain in your current situation--clueless and without any recourse.

 

[Crash Pad]

Hey ASA smart guys SKYW pilots make more than you. Maybe not hourly but certainly yearly. You smart Union hacks crack me up.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Hey ASA smart guys SKYW pilots make more than you. Maybe not hourly but certainly yearly. You smart Union hacks crack me up.

Hey Crash Pad,

Go work for them then you whiney POS! I'm sure they would love a guy that is willing to take it in the arse for nothing extra. Dont let the cockpit door hit you in the A** on the way out. You smart, we would be better without a union, hacks are worthless.

Maybe there you won't have to whine about the 70 lines either.

 

[nimtz]

Hey Jon Rivoli,

You are sure taking a lot of crap from these guys at PFT airlines. Yeah that's right although I'm sure some of them might have been in high school when their pilot groups rolled over on PFT. Too bad they don't know the history of their own pilot groups and the disastrous trend they set for the industry when those now senior guys waltzed in with a $12,000 check from mommy and daddy. Some of us remember those days. Yep I recall doing the 135 freight gig because I was wasn't one of the ones buying a job. I knew guys back then that had over 2000 hours of dual given and another few thousand of 135 time that couldn't get a job because of a seemingly endless supply of guys with enough cash to buy a job. Don't let them talk to you about lowering the bar. They wouldn't recognize the bar if it fell on their head.

Ah yes here we have another frequently played diversion attempt. PFT is all but gone and has been since '99. At my former PFT airline, most of those guys are gone off to better things. Even with this awful downturn PFT did not come back. You can't say that for real pay for 70 seats+. Sure seems like it won't be fixed anytime soon, especially with guys like you telling yourself whatever it takes to justify it. Let's keep the eye on the ball.

 

[Crash Pad]

Go Around tell me you don't work for that horse sh!t operation. I guess go get em. What I'm trying to say is that SKYW would pay me more... which would be extra for taking it in the A**.

Hey I don't have a problem with the 70 lines I have a problem when senior people who spend the better half of there lives b!tching about scheduling, bidding reserve. I got a pretty cherry deal no matter what the Union or Management tells me.

Since you clearly wear the ALPA pin and most likely go to the meetings and read the emails... let me give you the big flightinfo Union high five.

1. Good news Coex went to CHQ... This means management has no carrot to dangle. We will drive them back to preconcession comair plus 1%
2. Strike Now
3. It's a spiral to the bottom and I'm not willing to do this job for less
4. All I want for Christmas is a contract
5. Christmas 06? 07? 08?
6. WHIPSAW
7. 4 years is long enough for a fair contract
8. Yesterday I was forced to fly an airplane with an unsafe lav light... Can you imagine what management would do if we didn't have a Union
9. Hold the line
10. Raise the bar

Go get em guys... let me know how it works out. Remember I always vote no on more than 70 seats. Actually I always vote NO, because I think strikes are fun... Went on one with UPS (throwing boxes not flying)... Great time. I'll bring the beer you bring whatever Union guys bring to a strike (picket signs?)

 

[Crash Pad]

Go Around,
Sorry forgot the big one... SKYW is flying the 70 for 50 seat wages...


Mother of God!

 

[737 Pylt]

Jon:
IReally it's just to piss off people, like you 73, which is really easy to do (like your wife).

As been said many times, the typical DAL arrogance, is what turns turns many against you. Just because I make more than you doesn't mean you have to be so angry. Or is it other "shortcomings" with yourself that make you lose your patience so easily? GFYS

DAL arrogance....LOL....You spout your nut drainer about how you make more money than me, and I'm the one that's arrrogant?? I think you have some internal issues. And taking pot shots at my wife has nothing to do with the issues. But hey, if that makes you a bigger man, you win!
737

 

[Midge]

Really it's just to piss off people, like you 73, which is really easy to do (like your wife).

As been said many times, the typical DAL arrogance, is what turns turns many against you. Just because I make more than you doesn't mean you have to be so angry. Or is it other "shortcomings" with yourself that make you lose your patience so easily? GFYS

Why is it that someone always has to insult someone's family members? Like they have anything to do with the subject at hand. Taking cheap shots at someone's wife only shows that you have no credibility. Are you even married? My guess is no! Its pretty easy to call someone names and insult their family behind a computer keyboard, but my guess is you don't have the balls to do it to someone's face!
The zamboni driver

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Ah yes here we have another frequently played diversion attempt. PFT is all but gone and has been since '99. At my former PFT airline, most of those guys are gone off to better things. Even with this awful downturn PFT did not come back. You can't say that for real pay for 70 seats+. Sure seems like it won't be fixed anytime soon, especially with guys like you telling yourself whatever it takes to justify it. Let's keep the eye on the ball.

Where in my post did I try to justify flying 70 seaters for the same rate as a 50? You obviously have no clue how damaging PFT was to this segment of the industry. Quit trying to put words in my mouth. I am not trying to justify the present arrangments but I have a much better grasp of what got us to this point than you do.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Go Around tell me you don't work for that horse sh!t operation. I guess go get em. What I'm trying to say is that SKYW would pay me more... which would be extra for taking it in the A**.
No, ASA for 6 yrs. They may pay more with work rules, but Jerry can change their agreement any time he wants with no recourse.
Hey I don't have a problem with the 70 lines I have a problem when senior people who spend the better half of there lives b!tching about scheduling, bidding reserve. I got a pretty cherry deal no matter what the Union or Management tells me.
Seniority's a b*tch when you ain't got it huh? You choose what is best at the time and I guess reserve is better for now.

Since you clearly wear the ALPA pin and most likely go to the meetings and read the emails... let me give you the big flightinfo Union high five.

1. Good news Coex went to CHQ... This means management has no carrot to dangle.agreed We will drive them back to preconcession comair plus 1% hope so.
2. Strike Now Yes, if I could throw out the RLA!
3. It's a spiral to the bottom and I'm not willing to do this job for less Me either
4. All I want for Christmas is a contract I guess we were bad boys and girls.
5. Christmas 06? 07? 08?
6. WHIPSAW It takes both sides to stop it.
7. 4 years is long enough for a fair contract Duh!
8. Yesterday I was forced to fly an airplane with an unsafe lav light... Can you imagine what management would do if we didn't have a Union Funny, by that last post you were against the union? Confused.
9. Hold the line Been holding it.
10. Raise the bar Pushing with both arms.

Go get em guys... let me know how it works out. Remember I always vote no on more than 70 seats. Actually I always vote NO, because I think strikes are fun... Went on one with UPS (throwing boxes not flying)... Great time. I'll bring the beer you bring whatever Union guys bring to a strike (picket signs?)

You are losing me. I'm having a hard time knowing where you stand?

 

[nimtz]

Where in my post did I try to justify flying 70 seaters for the same rate as a 50? You obviously have no clue how damaging PFT was to this segment of the industry. Quit trying to put words in my mouth. I am not trying to justify the present arrangments but I have a much better grasp of what got us to this point than you do.

Then what in the lowest circle of hell does PFT have to do with this discussion oh wise one? You are the one who pressed the issue. Comair and XJT put up two of the best contracts for any regional. So the pilot groups were made up largely of PFT guys, what difference did that make. This segment of the industry is for bottom feeders and that has never changed since the days of Eastern Express/Bar Harbour. There will always be undercutting done if it gets someone turbine time.

Tell me how in this day in age PFT has anything to do with the erosion of mainline narrowbody jobs into sh!t paid regional jobs. That is the subject at hand. If you got an axe to grind at PFT then start your own thread. Lord knows there have been heaps of them.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

PFT set a precedent. Look the word up in the dictionary if you don't know what it means. If you don't think all those years of guys buying their jobs hampered fundmental improvements in compensation and QOL at other regionals then you sir are in need of a drug test. Furthermore if you think undercutting is limited to the regional sector of this industry you're once again demonstrating your ingnorance. Ever heard of Value Jet? How about People's Express? There was even a time when Southwest was considered a bottom feeder. Did you know that a CO scab defended his decision to return to work for Lorenzo for $43K/year by saying his only alternative was "making $18K yanking gear for a guy half my age at Southwest?"

PFT was sanctioned by several pilot groups and their union representatives. How hard do you think it was for non-PFT carriers to get a pay raise when the managers on the other side of the table could point to your airline and say "look you should be glad we're not charging new hires for their training?" In the same way that ALPA's failure to address scope in the beginning led to this whole problem we have today PFT airlines set the regionals back decades in terms of pay, benefits, and QOL. It's no longer part of the debate today but PFT is a big reason that you have to consider yourself a "bottom feeder." Your words, not mine.

 

[nimtz]

PFT was sanctioned by several pilot groups and their union representatives. How hard do you think it was for non-PFT carriers to get a pay raise when the managers on the other side of the table could point to your airline and say "look you should be glad we're not charging new hires for their training?" In the same way that ALPA's failure to address scope in the beginning led to this whole problem we have today PFT airlines set the regionals back decades in terms of pay, benefits, and QOL. It's no longer part of the debate today but PFT is a big reason that you have to consider yourself a "bottom feeder." Your words, not mine.

Precedent, yeah your pilot group knows that one well. Like cheering 70 for 50 pay and everyone else after has to follow. That my friend is direct linkage. I don't disagree PFT had it's damage, but in this discussion it's affect is about as relevant as the affect of Emery Riddle koolaid. To suggest the commuter level resulted in weak wages/benefits from PFT shows misplaced frustration. You think a BAe 146 Captain at Biz Ex was happy with his paycheck in 1990?

We work at the level where the smallest revenue is produced with the cheapest equipment. That my friend makes us both bottom feeders subject the most to the winds of change in this business. Of course the next level has its undercutting as well, but at the end of the day there take home pay at least affords a decent middle class lifestyle. Too bad those jobs are being whittled away by those who work for bottom feeders like you and I.

 

[Tomct]

Crash pad...no wonder you don't know what is going on. You don't read anything from the negotiating committee and you refuse to see the light. Not our problem. Go fly for SW and enjoy the opportunity to be TOLD what you will make!~ When our contract comes on line, the SKWST folks are going to be PISSED, because we are going to go far above them. What will they do? Send in SAPA to ask "Lord JA" for a pay raise and he will send them running back to the minions with...."Be happy You HAVE JOBS!!"

You are a complete Jack Ass and an embarassment to this entire profession.
Crawl back under your rock IDIOT!!

 

["GO AROUND"]

Tomct,

I can't figure out by crash's posts if he is anti union/ASA or not. I think he is pro ASA, but by that one post I think he's anti union.

 

[Splert]

The 20% Myth and Mindset

Jon R.,

The 20% is a myth.

Brad Rich explained it away during a Feb 2003 Raymond James Growth Conference Web cast. I have a copy of it. PM to me your Email address and I will send an audio file attachment.

The 20% myth and "Mindset" started with Jerry coming into my upgrade class and telling us, and the entire company, that he was taking a 20% cut in his base pay (IMO his options are his real pay but that is a different topic). It never happened. This 20% was pure marketing and was used to create a "Mindset" within management and other employee groups that SkyWest had to find 20% across the board cuts to stay in business and Jerry was leading the way.

Funny thing the 20% cut that executive management said they were taking never showed up in any public disclosures. This is because they never took it. Remember the “True Up Plan”. The 20% cut was used for motivational purposes internally to focus each employee on cost savings. Remember we took coffee lids out of the the aircraft and coffee from the training center– it was all apart of the mindset that management was trying and did instill.

Good luck

 

[Tomct]

Go Around...you are right. I believe that he is both as well as a Jack Ass!!
Did you see that last union pub with all of the stuff they are trying to get and what mgmnt is asking? I found that VERY informative and anyone that does not know where we are is just a plain IDIOT!!

Splert...I would not doubt that JA was trying to set that mindset within the company, but the really sad part is that you all FELL for IT!! Here they are making RECORD PROFITS and wanting us to take pay cuts! NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!! I hope that you guys wise up, get ANY union on property and put a stop to this Bull@hit! Because if you stay the way you are, you will never see a payraise and he could just CUT your payscale without reason and ZERO recourse from your pilot group. That should SCARE the CRAP out of you guys/gals!!

 

[Splert]

Splert...the really sad part is that you all FELL for IT!!

Not all of us did.

But enough did and most are unknowingly locked-up in this 'mindset' that Brad Rich spoke about.

I wish that I could post an audio file to flightinfo so that others can listen in to Brad explaining the truth behind the "mindset" plan. Because the plan was very effective and it is working. For instance, we are told to use both sides of the T.O.L.D. cards to save money. We just went though a ‘Double Down” program so that employees could submit ideas on how to save money. The winning idea was not to use the LOGO lights are much.


I know SAPA bought into it, IMO, at least the top 3 executives members of SAPA certainly did. These 3 are the ones that talk to management on the behalf the pilot group and these 3 took it hook line and sinker along with 105 hours of base pay per month.

Have a good day

 

[D'Angelo]

Go get em ASA! Look how quickly ALPO seemed to forget all about you guys once the delta stuff started hitting the fan. Dont worry you still have the right to impeach them. I surely havent heard much from ALPOs propoganda machine about ASA lately. Yea your dues are really hard at work. Oh wait I forgot it cant be their fault. Nothing is anyones fault anymore ever

 

[indianboy7]

Go fly for SW and enjoy the opportunity to be TOLD what you will make!

if management TOLD me what I make, I'd have a raise right now.......

 

["GO AROUND"]

Go get em ASA! Look how quickly ALPO seemed to forget all about you guys once the delta stuff started hitting the fan. Dont worry you still have the right to impeach them. I surely havent heard much from ALPOs propoganda machine about ASA lately. Yea your dues are really hard at work. Oh wait I forgot it cant be their fault. Nothing is anyones fault anymore ever

D, go back under Fred's desk where you belong. He's probably waiting for his morning bj so you should get right on that cause we all know you are all about giving Fred what he wants.

You forget that if DAL goes so does ASA and Comair? My ALPA reps here at ASA are working hard for ASA pilots and my dues are hard at work.

You should be watching what the FA's are doing cause you will be out of a job soon when they shut Comair down. It's impossible to run an airline with 7% of the FA's.

 

[737 Pylt]

PFT set a precedent. Look the word up in the dictionary if you don't know what it means. If you don't think all those years of guys buying their jobs hampered fundmental improvements in compensation and QOL at other regionals then you sir are in need of a drug test. Furthermore if you think undercutting is limited to the regional sector of this industry you're once again demonstrating your ingnorance. Ever heard of Value Jet? How about People's Express? There was even a time when Southwest was considered a bottom feeder. Did you know that a CO scab defended his decision to return to work for Lorenzo for $43K/year by saying his only alternative was "making $18K yanking gear for a guy half my age at Southwest?"

PFT was sanctioned by several pilot groups and their union representatives. How hard do you think it was for non-PFT carriers to get a pay raise when the managers on the other side of the table could point to your airline and say "look you should be glad we're not charging new hires for their training?" In the same way that ALPA's failure to address scope in the beginning led to this whole problem we have today PFT airlines set the regionals back decades in terms of pay, benefits, and QOL. It's no longer part of the debate today but PFT is a big reason that you have to consider yourself a "bottom feeder." Your words, not mine.

I love how hypocrites write this and then justify their own wrong doings....Hey dave be a man fess up....You set the precedence by flying 70 seaters for 50 seat wages....How is that any difference than PFT??? You better apologize to all the SW applicants who went out and bought a 737 type (I did it too) for "lowering the bar and setting a precedence" of PFT!
737

 

[Crash Pad]

I can't figure out by crash's posts if he is anti union/ASA or not. I think he is pro ASA, but by that one post I think he's anti union.

Ok here it is. I think ALPA is a horsesh!t operation. Usually I try not to fund such endeavors but since I can't keep the money, I pay and then yell from the cheap seats. I figure you make me pay the ticket fee I'm going to get my moneys worth. I want to be clear that I avoid any ALPA mailing or update. I figure when I show up to work and there is a picket line I'll go get some beer, webber, burgers, and a sign. When you ask me to vote on a new contract I'll do that also.

I think you die hard ALPA guys are hilarious. This is also a point of personal conflict. Here you are fighting for me so I have to cheer for you. I also think, however, that you guys are rediculous so here I am cheering for the rediculous.

ASA has been better than advertised in the interview. I don't work much. They pay me more than my previous employer. I get the sweet Delta travel(for a little while longer). The one thing I'll say about ASA is that they have been honest with me. I will, however, vote for a strike and burn this place to the ground. ASA sent the infamous flica letter. I hate junk mail and forcing me to read it is just unamerican.

Hope that clears up where I stand.

 

[Crash Pad]

Crash pad...no wonder you don't know what is going on. You don't read anything from the negotiating committee and you refuse to see the light. Not our problem. Go fly for SW and enjoy the opportunity to be TOLD what you will make!~ When our contract comes on line, the SKWST folks are going to be PISSED, because we are going to go far above them. What will they do? Send in SAPA to ask "Lord JA" for a pay raise and he will send them running back to the minions with...."Be happy You HAVE JOBS!!"

Tomct... go to SLC and find the disgruntled SKYW pilots. It will take you a little time. Then go to ASA and try to find them it should take 2 seconds. My point is that despite the fact that we have the greatest aviation union in the history of the world we still have an employee group that is hugely disgruntled. I don't know what you'll get in the new contract but it wont fix that problem.
I know SKYW is not protected from the best union ever. I have a hunch they aren't sweating it as much as you are.