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Impotent Union?

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Dude

Primer oficial
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
396
Evening Ya'll,

Perhaps it's time that we all evaluate the purpose of representation. What is fair, equitable, appropriate, and most of all acceptable to all sides of our cancerous operations? It occurs to me that while allowing a company to kick you in the teeth is not a desirable relationship, I wonder how desirable our current relationship is. The relationship between the union and its members is built on sand and without a solid foudation it will crumble sooner rather than later. For many this is a repeat of yester-year and we will prevail in the end. I don't believe this to be a time when prevail is in our vocabulary. We all have written language that spells out the rules for both sides and regardless of the company or group, these rules are being changed and our union cannot stop the trend. What is the purpose of a labor agreement if it isn't followed and when grieved, a court favors the violating party? Where is my union and where are my dues going? This should be the primary focus of our ALPA, not polling, notebooks, fliers, e-mails, but the enforcement of what they negotiated.

My MEC, for the most part, is a group of hard working volunteers that have fallen into the trap of believing that they will be given every neccessary resource to combat mgmt during negotiations and grievance hearings. Sadly, this is not the case. My mgmt is encouraged by the mediators and the courts to operate any way they see fit to make a profit, regardless of the agreement it has with its labor force. Making a profit, after all, is why we are here but at who's expense. This profession is not being driven south by the youth of the business, but rather the experienced that refuse to adapt and overcome obstacles in an everchanging industry that has no room at the dinner table for the tardy. jetBlue, AirTran, Southwest and others have done it right by forcing themselves as an entire unit (pilot, FA, ramp, mgmt, etc..) to compete with one goal in mind................make the customer want to spend their money on you rather than the other guy and not just for the savings but for the differences in service. Folks, this is a service industry with no room for complacency or obsolete tactics. Our consumer is more educated, more fickle, and more willing to save a buck than he/she used to be. With that in mind I ask you why is our union still negotiating and representing its members as if the industry has not changed?

Easy answer............it's easy to stay the course whether flawed or not and if failure presents itself, you blame mgmt or the govmt. Wrong approach, my friends. I am a proud airline pilot with a level of frustration that is almost impossible to measure, but I will not accept that my union has my best interest in mind, when we have been at the table for two plus years with little to no progress. The current approach is not working anymore. If it's broken, fix it. This is something that my national represenatives are unwilling to do. March in circles, strike, pee on Skip's leg or whatever, but it's not going to get better for us until we force ALPA to represent us and not merely tell us what they want us to have. It is our responsibility to force accountability upon our leadership and ensure that our union actually represent us rather than lecture us or mislead us to accept measures that benefit another group.

I am not affiliated with the RJDC or ALPA, other than my dues. My dues are not doing the job and neither is MY UNION. Capt Woerth and company need to understand that the dynamics of this business are changing and you either change with them and try to influence the future or get left out of the game. The divide between mainline and its feed is slowly eroding. For feeders this is good but not for our counterparts. Mainline pilots can thank Mr. Woerth for this not the "bar-lowering" regional pilots. If you ask me who is lowering the bar I'll tell you it's ALPA by refusing to update its strategy and by default forfeiting the war. It isn't a matter of drinking the kool aid, it's a matter of wishful thinking and who can fault our local folks for that. The problem is they can't see the forest for the trees. National has a shovel full and ready to throw it our way when we ask for it, which is often and unfruitful. Acting on behalf of its members should be first on the local level then on the national level, but instead we take direction from national over the guidance of the local membership. We either reclaim our union and seek viable alternatives in working with our respective mgmts, seek new representation, or suffer needlessly and forever devalue our profession and the progress of our past.

These are times that will define our profession for tomorrow and without a proactive and effective union and calculating pilot group we will fail. Marching and sriking will not accomplish our goals, only changing the rules as they do will.

The views expressed on this post do not reflect anyone group, place or thing. They are the opinions of this poor, bi-polar, unfulfilled, and deflated shell of a man.
 
Unions are a necessary evil in this industry. They should be used to ensure that the crews are not abused by schedueling or management (which they are). However, it is unfortunate that NO pilot union, no matter how large or powerful, can protect us from ourselves (meaning other pilots). There are always those pilots willing to fly an RJ, XJ, BJ(lol) for pennies and management realizes that.

Maybe there should be one porfessional pilots union for ALL pilots that have to be a member of if they hold a commercial license. Maybe that would strengthen the union stance and keep $12.00 f/o's out of the cockpit. I think it would be beneficial for all. Just my opinion though.
 
Nice mantra Dude.

The problem is a majority doesn't participate in thier union. They pay their dues which buys them plenty of expectations.

Sure it is easy to complain on the internet, crewrooms and cockpits, but to actually show up at a LEC meeting?

"No way dude, I only have 10 days off. I'm not going to no meeting"

Well, you're going to continue have 10 days off unless you get involved. No, not volunteer, [god forbid you actually did!] but give your union reps ammunition. Management easily writes off the same ol' crap that your reps repeat. However, when your reps have greviences, reports, emails from the memebership, they can load that into their weapon and fire away at management. And the company feels pain.

Attendance at LEC meeting is embarrassing low. The UAL SFO LEC just passed a resolution supporting a change in Age 60. How? Only 14 ALPA pilots showed up. 14 pilots spoke for an entire council.

Get the idea?

One of ALPA's short comings is educating its members how the organization works. I've flown with super senior pilots with 15 or 20 year ALPA pins that are shamefully misinformed as to how ALPA works. You can't even talk to pilots who are ignorant on the process and issues.

Isn't it humorous that pilots send thousands of dollars (1.95%) to ALPA each year and they don't know how to use it? That is like buying a piece of machinery and not knowing how to operate it.

ALPA is not without its faults. Keeping up with the times is a valid issue.

The recent membership survey ALPA did, only had about 20% particpation.

ALPA voter particpation in LEC elections is embarassing low. Usually around 35%. The LEC reps elect your MEC and your EVPs. The MEC Chair represents YOU at the National Level.

Another issue is when members do contact their reps they offer issues and problems and no real solutions. Pilot calls up and says to his Rep "They should fix that." Well, ok, but who is they? And How should it be fixed? And who is going to pay for it? It is one thing to raise the issue, but to come up with solutions that work for both sides takes maturity, patience, experience and intelligence.

I recall a pilot who said, "ALPA should just call the company and make it happen." It just isn't this simple, idealistic and easy. Either you understand how the world works or you don't.

Let's be realistic. ALPA is like any organization that is run by human beings. Agree with everything the Church does? The US Gov't? State and Local gov't? How about your HOA? The state of FL? (ok cheap shot)

What can you directly control? Answer: your education and participation. Just paying dues doesn't cut it. That is obvious. The ALPA membership has give DW and Co carte blanc with thier dues money. So of course the membership is disapointed, but without more direction National is going to do what they think is best or what they want....

Thoughts?
 
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Rez just nailed it.

Dude, you rule, I love your spirit. The root of the problem though, is apathy.

Cure the apathy, and what you speak of will happen. Not before.
 
Dude should start his own airline, make the pilots run management.
 
now there is a great track record
 
Dude, if you don't like what your MEC is doing, call your rep and ask him/her why things are the way they are. If you don't feel satisfied with the answer/direction they're taking, ask yourself if the majority of the pilots in your council DISAGREE with you and AGREE with what the union is doing. If that's the case, then they are doing their job. If not, then you should go to a LEC meeting and recall your reps in favor of someone you think WILL take the right steps.

They're right about how much power the LEC reps have. They run your union. They elect your MEC Chairman, Vice-chair and secretary treasurer. They approve the budget. They appoint committee members, like your negotiators and your greivance committee. You don't like them, talk to them. Still don't, swap them out. The problem isn't ALPA, it's apathy/uninvolvement at the local level.

P.S. I like your signature.
 
Rez,

I would offer solutions, but my union has access to the table.........I don't. The one solution I can offer is that ALPA needs to be more interested in engaging mgmt and offering solutions rather than drawing lines in the sand. The reform must start somewhere and I support it. The problem with speaking your mind at an LEC meeting or in the lounge with ALPA leaders is that if you disagree with them, you aren't taken seriously. God forbid that you disagree with your leadership and offer alternatives. You are easily branded a radical, ALPA hater, or an appeaser if you differ from national or the MEC. As previously stated the MEC should take its cues from the members, not national. There is too much chest pounding and preaching and not enough listening.
 
Dude, I think you should paste your message to the ALPA message board. You have a point, but it's wasted here on an anonymous message board.

Rev o Lewshun, you are also right.
 
Dude said:
The relationship between the union and its members is built on sand and without a solid foudation it will crumble sooner rather than later.
Dude: you and all the other pilots that dont participate is the reason for this!

Dude said:
Where is my union and where are my dues going? This should be the primary focus of our ALPA, not polling, notebooks, fliers, e-mails, but the enforcement of what they negotiated.
Dude, you show your ignorance in what the UNION is all about in your above statement. YOUR UNION IS NOTHING WITHOUT YOUR PHYSICAL SUPPORT.
Without membership support (NOT JUST FINANCIAL) the Union does not exist. The union is not a service you pay for.. It is an organization you belong to!

dude said:
My MEC, for the most part, is a group of hard working volunteers that have fallen into the trap of believing that they will be given every neccessary resource to combat mgmt during negotiations and grievance hearings. Sadly, this is not the case.
DUDE, you, me and the 1700 other pilots on ASA property are the "neccessary resource" our MEC has to combat Mgmt during negotiations. The pilots of ASA and You in particular are the worst enemy of the MEC and the pilot groups chance of success.

Dude said:
With that in mind I ask you why is our union still negotiating and representing its members as if the industry has not changed?
Dude, once again you show your ignorance to the issues... I ask you to please quote or show proof that the CNC is asking for things that are unatainable! You hear rumors, and make things up in your mind and then all of a sudden it is true?

Dude said:
I am a proud airline pilot with a level of frustration that is almost impossible to measure, but I will not accept that my union has my best interest in mind, when we have been at the table for two plus years with little to no progress.
Dude if you are frustrated, why will you not get involved? why do you belive that informational picketting does not work? We have been at the table for 2.5 years because of several reasons, including politics, but you can fix that. Our CNC chairman said specifically that the picketing is working! Even though our turn out has been poor.

Dude said:
It is our responsibility to force accountability upon our leadership and ensure that our union actually represent us rather than lecture us or mislead us to accept measures that benefit another group.
"OUR UNION".. You think just because you pay dues our union exist? You are so wrong and you need to stop embarassing yourself.. OUR UNION DOES NOT EXIST WITHOUT PARTICIPATION. I am carring the weight of you on my back by getting out there, volunteering on differnt commitees, walking in circles etc. you are a lump on a log!

Dude said:
I am not affiliated with the RJDC or ALPA, other than my dues. My dues are not doing the job and neither is MY UNION.

You said it yourself in the above statement..

YOUR DUES ARE NOT DESIGNED TO DO THE JOB! ONCE AGAIN FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT DID NOT SEE IT:

YOUR UNION IS NOTHING WITHOUT YOUR PARTICIPATION AND SACRIFICE OF YOUR TIME. YOUR UNION IS YOU, ME AND THE GUY NEXT TO YOU. YOUR UNION IS NOT A SERVICE THAT YOU PAY FOR. YOUR DUES REQUIRE PARTICIPATION AND VOLUNTEERISM FOR THEM TO BE EFFECTIVE!
 
av8tor4239,

Your response more than validates my post. Folks like yourself that automatically respond this way as a result of someone's differing opinion make my statements true. As for volunteering, I will when the union represents me fairly and with my interests as a priority. You obviously have passion or rage, not sure which; that is good but it is misguided. A militant approach is an obsolete tactic and so is blaming your fellow members for not getting the job done. Dude, I have enough in my life without occupying it with ALPA. I come to work, pay my dues, and picket when possible or turn up to an LEC meeting if I have time. Between my personal life, wife and child and the union.......the union loses. I DO believe that dues should suffice to recruit the right resources to do the job. If this isn't possible then give me back my money and I'll invest my time instead, but not both. Like I said earlier, work smart, not hard. the current game plan isn't working for anyone.

Be militant all you want; but my testosterone is saved for my wife, not the pissing contest between ALPA and the company. The reason more of the pilot group does not get involved is because of blow-hards like you that had rather yell and scream than be productive. I hope you enjoy the lifestyle at the regionals because with our tactics and negotiating style, you get to enjoy it for years to come thanks to ALPA.

How can any member blindly support a union that is lead by a socialist that refuses to share the sacrifice that has burdened has members. The last time I checked Duane Woerth's pay grossly exceeds that of his peers and his pension is protected, unlike the pilots he "represents". Do not lecture me about volunteerism when ALPA's president makes what he does while expecting struggling members to give more of themselves to prolong his ride on his gravy-train with biscuit wheels. I'll volunteer when the vocal few sit down and listen to reason and appear to care about a fair and equitable process between mgmt and the association. Until this happens, preach on brotha, cause nobody's listening but you.
 
The highest power structure is the membership at the LEC level.

Many MEC's like to carve out their own little kingdom and don't like members asking hard questions. However this is even more reason to press harder and if your LEC/MEC Reps prove uncooperative, well, shame on you for voting for them in, but now get rid of them.

Dude, you logic doesn't work when you say

As for volunteering, I will when the union represents me fairly and with my interests as a priority.

You got to keep shaking things up. What is your LEC/MEC going to do? Fire you? Stop your dues? It is all political and don't be afraid to push your issue. If this is too much work, then you don't have, nor do you really WANT a seat at the table. And that is fine, but it is what it is.

As far as DW salary. It may be an issue, but how does that really effect you at the local level, where your true issues are? In addition, if you were truley interested in in "rightsizing" DW's salary, do you know how/where to even start?

But before you tackle DW's salary, isn't your OWN wage and work rules more important? After you get a new contract, then go after National.

You have legitamite issues, but saying ALPA is jacked up, folding your arms and sitting there fustrated doesn't work for you or the membership.

It is not easy, but it is worth it.

Get involved and educated.
 
What, specifically, is your negotiating committee trying to achieve that you think they shouldn't be?

Should they compromise on rates, work rules, per diem, scope, vacation, benefits? Are they asking for more than the industry standard, the same, or less?
 
Dude said:
av8tor4239,



Dude said:
The last time I checked Duane Woerth's pay grossly exceeds that of his peers and his pension is protected, unlike the pilots he "represents". Do not lecture me about volunteerism when ALPA's president makes what he does while expecting struggling members to give more of themselves to prolong his ride on his gravy-train with biscuit wheels.

I'll volunteer when the vocal few sit down and listen to reason and appear to care about a fair and equitable process between mgmt and the association. Until this happens, preach on brotha, cause nobody's listening but you.

DUDE: Duane Woerth is not negotiating our contract... Duane Woerth is supporitng us with a recent deposit to the ASA MEC of 2 MILLION dollars to support our negotiations, and to fund our picketing!

If you want to complain about overpaid zelots with guaranteed pensions you need to talk to the DELTA and ASA management, the people you obviously are supporting..

Why dont you show up to and LEC meeting and voice your opinion. Tell everyone how it is, and you opinion will be considered!
 
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av8tor4239 said:
Dude said:
av8tor4239,

Why dont you show up to and LEC meeting and voice your opinion. Tell everyone how it is, and you opinion will be considered!

Because he doesn't want to be ridiculed in public by the MEC Chairman. It isn't popular to tell the emperor he has no cloths. I can attest to the fact that having an opinion that is contrary to this MEC is not a pleasant experience. There are many who feel like Dude and they tell me that. In fact, I have committee members and MEC members agree with "off the record", but officially they don't want to say anything.
 
av8tor4239 said:
YOUR UNION IS NOTHING WITHOUT YOUR PARTICIPATION AND SACRIFICE OF YOUR TIME. YOUR UNION IS YOU, ME AND THE GUY NEXT TO YOU. YOUR UNION IS NOT A SERVICE THAT YOU PAY FOR. YOUR DUES REQUIRE PARTICIPATION AND VOLUNTEERISM FOR THEM TO BE EFFECTIVE!

Av8tor,
The union only wants participation from those who agree with the things the union does. There are many talented and smart people with years of ALPA experience who would volunteer their time, however because they have different opinions, they aren't welcome. This union has turned away dozens of hard working ALPA volunteers over the years due to petty politics.
 
Inclusive Scope:

Join me in picketing the picketers! I will have mass information coming out soon. I will contact you! Be Ready!
 
Iconcede4growth said:
Inclusive Scope:

Join me in picketing the picketers! I will have mass information coming out soon. I will contact you! Be Ready!

Nice try at flamebait. This is just an attempt to paint the "reasonable" side as "anti-union". Even if you were for real, which clearly your not, I wouldn't "picket the picketers". They aren't to blame, and their passion is comendable. I was there at one time and understand their frustration. I don't have a problem with them. I have a problem with poor leadership that is leading them down a dead end. Contrary to popular belief, many of us on this side of the aisle aren't big management fans either. We can cut through the BS from both sides of the table.
 
I am not flame bait: I am very serious.. I already work for nothing. I make 17k a year.. I can barly pay my debt let alone my rent, so dont tell me about FLAME BAIT! I am sick of the BS.. I want the E 170 and i will give it all for it! SO picketing the picketers is the key..
 
InclusiveScope said:
av8tor4239 said:
Because he doesn't want to be ridiculed in public by the MEC Chairman. It isn't popular to tell the emperor he has no cloths. I can attest to the fact that having an opinion that is contrary to this MEC is not a pleasant experience. There are many who feel like Dude and they tell me that. In fact, I have committee members and MEC members agree with "off the record", but officially they don't want to say anything.

Bring a gun to a knife fight.:rolleyes:

Of course you'd show this to your LEC Rep and say "Can you talk to our MEC chairman about his attitude problem, I'd hate to even make this an agenda item at the next meeting?"



Resolution of Censor of MEC Chairman for public ridacule and disrespect of the membership.

Source
LEC membership​


Background
The MEC Chairman has contiunously ridaculed in an attempt to shut down members from speaking unpopular or unwanted opinons.​


Resolution
Whereas the MEC Chairman uses ridacule tactics to silence LEC members from contributing to the democratic process of conduction the business of the Association​


Therefore be it resolved that the MEC Chairman has been advised that his behavior is unprofessional, undemocratic and unaccpetable​
 
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