Importance of PIC time?

[Vspeeds]

PIC Times!

"Take a guy who has 1,300 hours PIC in a Beech 99"

Has a Beech 99 guy ever got hired on at SWA or Alaska?

 

[avbug]

It can't be too much of a waste of bandwidth, can it now, mate? After all, I'm just quoting YOU.

Let's do it some more...

...instead of grinding it out for 1500 hours in the left seat of a DHC-8, I chose to come fly a 737 ... Well, things changed, and I'm stuck in the right seat for years and years to come. I don't think I'll see the left seat here for at least another 8 years or so and I'm in my 5th year...despite 2000+ hours in a 737, I can't apply to SWA or Alaska for that matter because I didn't grind out a few hundred more hours in the left seat of a DHC-8. On the other hand, a guy flying a Beech 99 at Ameriflight or Alpine can meet the mins.

The guy coming from Ameriflight or Alpine can meat the minimums because he holds the qualifications, you see. He has the Pilot in Command experience that you do not. You see this as unfair exactly how?

Minimums are minimm experience levels...which is why they're called minimums. See the connection, there?

You say "because I didn't grind out a few hundred more hours" and therefore clearly show that you elected to forego obtaining the necessary pilot in command time--you gave up obtaining the qualification--to grab the brass ring and get in the B737. You've got the ring. You made your choice. Perhaps the Oracle had it right...now you need to understand that choice.

You can go get more PIC time if you feel the need, but you telll us you don't feel the need. So why lament? Why complain that you can't apply elsewhere (because you're not qualified), when you don't want to apply elsewhere?

I'm not looking to leave anywhere,

No, you're not looking to "leave anywhere," though you tell us you feel stuck in a position that requires thirteen years to upgrade in a B737. Are you therefore not looing because you're stuck?

Sort of bears out the point that one should seek as much experience as PIC as possible...because of course employers want to see PIC experience...no firm worth their salt intentionally hires a SIC to stay a SIC. Companies hire PIC's into SIC positions, with the full intent of getting the most bang for their buck by upgrading them to captain positions. PIC experience is most valueable, SIC experience is borderline valueless...because it's command experience that an employer wants to see. SIC time is only marking time until you can uprgrade and be more than captain's helper.

In the 121 world and in places where crews change off regularly, duties from one seat to the other are very similiar, but the bottom line is that a prospective employer wants to see experience showing that the applicant has signed for the airplane, and has been responsible for the airplane, and this time is called PIC. Gotta have it, and your comments clearly show it.

Take a guy who has 1,300 hours PIC in a Beech 99, no type ratings, zero jet time, zero Part 121 experience. That person meets the hiring requirements of SWA or Alaska for example to sling gear in a 737 for 5-10 years or whatever the upgrade time goes for at those airlines.

Take another guy who has 600 hours of turbine PIC flying Part 121, several type ratings, a couple thousand hours in the right seat of a 737 flown under the same rules as Alaska or SWA. This guy is *NOT* qualified.

I call that shallow.

You call it what you want, but the companies that do the hiring call it "unqualified." You see, bottom line, one pilot has 1,300 hours of PIC, and the other has half of that. If the minimums are a thousand hours of PIC...then the 600 hour pilot falls four hundred hours short, and the 1,300 hour pilot is three hundred hours to the good. You can call it "shallow" all you like, but whining about it won't get you hired, whereas obtaining the necessary qualifications will.

What about this...go do some flying on the side, seeing as you have thirteen years of waiting for that upgrade to do, and in short order you'll have the necessary qualifications as PIC to meet the hiring reqirements.

Remember that by definition, minimums are the bottom rung of what is required. No regulation or policy has been created that says you can't exceed those numbers.

While you chew on that, reflect on the fact that helicopter pilots often have many hours they can't count, as it's in another category and class...even if it's multi engine turbine PIC. Many of these companies don't count single engine time as anything but single engine, even if it's turbine PIC. How about this one...my time in four engine large radial powered piston bombers is counted by most firms in the came category as a Cessna 310, even though it's a night and day difference. Who cares? Bottom line is that a company establishes a policy, and you either meet the criteria, or you don't. If you don't, and you want the job, it's very simple. Find a way to meet the criteria, or move on!!

 

[pilotyip]

Buddy of mine, ex USAir, 10,000K SIC in DC-9 and B-737, typed in DC-9 and B-737, but only 500 PIC in a King Air that he had when hired in 1989 by US Air. When laid of fin 2001, he could not interview with any of the places he wanted to go to because he did not have the 1000 PIC time

 

[Freight Dog]

pilotyip, that's too bad for your friend. But as avbug says... he's not qualified. Also, as AeroMatt says, he's only proven he can get along with his captains.

According to these geniuses, he should have foreseen his furlough and resigned from a six figure flying job to fly boxes in some beat up BE99 for 25k to gain that valuable turbine PIC experience.

 

[avbug]

According to these geniuses, he should have foreseen his furlough and resigned from a six figure flying job to fly boxes in some beat up BE99 for 25k to gain that valuable turbine PIC experience.

I said no such thing.

Again, you suggest things which I did not say, nor did I suggest. At no point did I suggest you resign your job to go get experience...however, if you want another job for which you are not qualified, that's what you will have to do. You suggested it, not me. If you're happy where you are, and you relish that 13 year upgrade in a B737, then more power to you.

Either you meet the requirements, or you don't. Apparently you don't, and apparently that chaps you. You failed to get qualified, you thought you'd bypass the need, and it bit you in the butt. Sorry to hear of it, You have a decision to make...you tell us you feel stuck in your position, you lament your 13 years of upgrade, but also lament that you are unable to go elsewhere, all the while telling us you have no desire. If you have no desire, then drop it already, stop putting words in my mouth (or quote me if it makes you feel better), and move on.

Fact is, PIC experience is far more valueable for the purposes of being hired, and in many cases, also upgrading.

 

[US Flyer]

pilotyip, that's too bad for your friend. But as avbug says... he's not qualified. Also, as AeroMatt says, he's only proven he can get along with his captains.

According to these geniuses, he should have foreseen his furlough and resigned from a six figure flying job to fly boxes in some beat up BE99 for 25k to gain that valuable turbine PIC experience.

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this, but have seen both sides of this debate as I've worked my way through my aviation career. I went through the same basic scenario (that Freight Dog did) at my company, and was frustrated to see an ex-student of mine (from my CFI days) go on to SWA with 3000TT after he flew freight for 18 months. At the time I had over 6000 TT, had extensive flying experience from Alaska to the Caribean and and flown Metros, King-Airs, Fokker Jet and a CRJ. Although I had plenty of PIC time, it was not the PIC Turbine time that they want.

I also came to my company when the upgrade time (had been) two years and then it became 6 years. I do not have a fraction of the total time or experience base to draw from like many of the US Air guys mentioned by PilotYip that ended up being screwed by the situation. Even though I have more PIC Turbine time than they do, I have no doubt those US Air guys with 15000 hours and 200 PIC Turbine could fly circles around me in a transport category airplane.

Its a somewhat flawed system, but short of some kind of nationwide master seniority system, which we probably don't want for other reasons, I don't ever see it changing. If I had to do it over again, I would go back in time to nine years ago and have flown boxes in a beat up freighter for two years. My friend who did this is now getting close to captain upgrade at SWA and I'm still trying to get an interview!

 

[pilotyip]

Luck and timing have more to do with a successful airline career than skill and desire.

 

[Thedude]

Luck and timing have more to do with a successful airline career than skill and desire.

Oh, how true that is.

 

[lawfly]

Know a guy who flew B99s for 4 years as PIC and is now right seat new hire at a regional where seniority will dictate his next upgrade. Single pilot might prove nerves of steel or whatever, but CRM is where it's at in a true two pilot airplane. Some operations require both pilots to be type rated, for example. You can't really generalize about SIC positions: would depend on the type of aircraft, the operation, whether an ATP and a type was required by the operation for the right seat, upgrade opportunities, etc. I think a good case can be made that the right seat in a late model, glass cockpit bizjet (for good pay) at a solid operation requiring an ATP and a type rating for the right seat, with upgrade opportunities, is better time than single pilot in an old B99 at an operation where that is the terminal position. Depends on what your goals are, too, your age, etc.

 

[CAVOK69]

this simply means they have way too many people that want the job and you have to set the bar somewhere. I think that these airlines know, you can find a sharp guy with 1000tt and little jet exp. that will succeed at flying a 737 or 747 given the time in the sim and right seat. The top paying airlines can afford to ask for college degrees and 1000 pic jet (or 1300 pic jet) b/c they need some way of trimming down the number of qualified pilots to a managable number.

Just my opinion, not like a degree makes you fly better.

 

[Nalo Boy]

this simply means they have way too many people that want the job and you have to set the bar somewhere. I think that these airlines know, you can find a sharp guy with 1000tt and little jet exp. that will succeed at flying a 737 or 747 given the time in the sim and right seat.

Well put. We have all seen that it doesnt matter how many hours you have, how many tours you did in vietnam or how many MIG kills you have, you can still be a crappy pilot and captain.

I know only a dozen or guys that I would call " awesome pilots " and half of them dont have the "minimum experience" that we're talking about, I also know lots of guys with 10K plus PIC time that have never shut down an engine in flight etc.

But the airlines need to set the bar somewhere, and it would cost more money than they have to REALLY weed the good pilots from the bad....so get the time.