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Importance of PIC time?

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maddmax10001

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Posts
14
I am not sure if I understand why the PIC time is considered so valuable. Obviously everone wants to move up etc. I have been advised to keep instructing for time and I always hear about guys going to the companies that run 1900's etc for quick upgrades - but the pay is still poor. So is the PIC importance for eventually getting hired with the majors?
 
I'm not sure I understood a single thing you said.

You don't understand why an employer might value pilot in command time? You don't understand an employer who is going to hire a pilot might conceivably want that pilot to have experience as a pilot, making decisions, taking responsibility, and showing that the pilot is worth hiring? Of course an employer wants to see PIC time.

Is PIC experience valueable? Yes, far more valueable than SIC experience.

You are apparently instructing. You understand that all your instruction time is PIC, correct?
 
Yes of course I understand the PIC time shows responsibility and capability. I guess I was thinking more that if you stay with the companies you choose to work for I thought it was all about seniority and not PIC time?
 
Some companies upgrade based on seniority, some by merit, some by nepotism, some by whim, some don't upgrade but hire in people off the street...and others by seniority, but only applicable to those who have the qualifications and ability to upgrade.

If you lack the qualifications to upgrade and your seniority puts you in line for an upgrade, then you're probably not going to upgrade.

I stiill don't know what you're saying. Are you asking about a pilot working for an employer who quits his job and goes elsewhere to obtain more PIC experience, before coming back to work for the employer he quit?

I've seen that happen...people who were hired as a SIC, but were unable to upgrade due to their lack of experience...who then went elsewhere to obtain some experience and some education before returning to continue their progress.

All depends on the employer, the person, and the circumstance. Do you have something specific in mind?
 
As soon as you have 1200 hrs, start looking for a 135 IFR PIC job and start building resume that will get you future jobs
 
I am not sure if I understand why the PIC time is considered so valuable. Obviously everone wants to move up etc. I have been advised to keep instructing for time and I always hear about guys going to the companies that run 1900's etc for quick upgrades - but the pay is still poor. So is the PIC importance for eventually getting hired with the majors?

Often those 1900 jobs just promise quick upgrades... but won't deliver. If you look at the regionals you will find guys who are being hired at 400TT but will not see the left seat at their airline for seven years or more. This is largely due to the lack of PIC experience. The more PIC time you show on your resume, the more you are telling a potential employer that you have been in the hot seat and know how to survive.

Now that the majors are beginning to hire again, they are requiring plenty of Turbine or Jet PIC time before they will even look at your resume. Even with that, a job with the majors is a far cry from what it was during the golden days so don't have blinders on and overlook the other jobs out there that can be great careers.

Take PilotYIP's advice and go get a freight dog job once you have 1200TT. Go fly for a year or two with an outfit like Amflight flying single pilot IFR 135 and you are gold to operators whose insurance requires lots of PIC time for upgrade.

Just my .02
 
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That's crap. I was a DHC-8 captain prior to coming to Aloha. Aloha at the time had 3 year upgrades, so instead of grinding it out for 1500 hours in the left seat of a DHC-8, I chose to come fly a 737 at higher pay figuring upgrade would remain there as we had plans to add more 737-700's to the fleet. Well, things changed, and I'm stuck in the right seat for years and years to come. I don't think I'll see the left seat here for at least another 8 years or so and I'm in my 5th year.

The whole PIC requirement is absurd given that at least our airline system is all strict seniority based. So basically, despite 2000+ hours in a 737, I can't apply to SWA or Alaska for that matter because I didn't grind out a few hundred more hours in the left seat of a DHC-8. On the other hand, a guy flying a Beech 99 at Ameriflight or Alpine can meet the mins.
So according to this logic, I need to leave my 80k+ job to go back to fly a Caravan just to have a shot at slinging gear in a 737 at another company. It's a flawed logic as it doesn't look at the overall picture.
 
One Dawg to another, becareful for what you wish for because you might just get it. You jumped ship based on current information, not forecasting future performance of Aloha. I will stay put waiting for a FedEx or UPS interview.
 
I think once you get some Jet/Turbo prop PIC under your belt (especially 121) you don't need to keep flying PIC.. I got some ATR, Citation X and Citation V PIC and now am going back to the right seat (possibly for a few years).. I don't care anymore, as I've got my resume filled.. the difference between 1500PIC Turbine and 5000 PIC turbine is meaningless in the world of hiring.. after your first 1200-1300 it's usually all who you know..
 
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That's crap... The whole PIC requirement is absurd given that at least our airline system is all strict seniority based...It's a flawed logic as it doesn't look at the overall picture.

It's not "crap." What you lack are the basic qualifications, and that's exactly what's been said here; you need to hold the basic qualifications in order to upgrade. Period. I believe I said that in a post above.

Upgrade is based upon seniority, dependent upon being qualified to upgrade. Merely being in the seat doesn't necessarily mean you're able, as you've shown in your post. You're angry, justifiably so...you saw what you thought was the brass ring, you grabbed it, and you discovered avaition where the only constant is change. The problem was that when you grabbed the ring, you lacked the qualifications...you ran before you could walk, and now you're angry about not having enough walking experience.

Perhaps more significant is that you feel going somewhere else to gain PIC experience is a step backward. That's unfortunate. One mans ceiling is another man's floor, some say. I see people daily who can't afford to eat, many who live in tents in the desert and carry water for miles in goatskin bags, and whom will never have a small percentage of what you have or be where you are...your ceiling is already much higher than theirs.

You're not the only pilot unable to move up because of lack of qualification, change in circumstance, or hollow promise. It's rife in the industry. The best defense against that, if there is such a thing, is to seek out as much qualification as you can get...in the context of this thread, that means getting as much PIC experience as you can in aircraft appropriate to what you seek. If you seek a turbine position, then turbine PIC...if you seek a multi turbine position then multi turbine PIC. You get the picture.

I'm sorry to hear of your circumstance. It's not uncommon. Many of us have been there. Job security in this business was always an illousion...some are having an uncomfortable night as they wake up to that fact in this modern day and age. Best of luck.
 
It's not "crap." What you lack are the basic qualifications, and that's exactly what's been said here; you need to hold the basic qualifications in order to upgrade. Period. I believe I said that in a post above.

What basic qualifications are those? In my previous Part 121 job, I passed the captain written, oral, sim check, IOE and the FAA observation ride, flew as a bid line captain. Sure, I had to meet the basic qualifications to upgrade, and that was ATP mins plus time in type, both of which I substantially exceeded at my upgrade time.

Let's define "being qualified to upgrade." Do you call your date of hire a qualification? I don't. If my airline was to get 10 more planes, according to your explanation, I'd all of a sudden be qualified as my DOH would be able to hold captain. Same drill as before... written, oral, sim check, IOE, line flying, basically the stuff you get when your seniority allows it.

Once you're past your ATP and your first airline type rating, it has nothing to do with qualifications, it has to do with seniority. Basing something on flight hours alone beyond that point without looking at the complete picture is rather shallow. You can't tell me that a pilot who hasn't flown anything bigger than a Caravan or a Beech 99 is better qualified than another pilot with thousands of hours in type (say 737) who hasn't been able to upgrade in their current position because of their seniority and/or the financial condition of their company.

I will agree with you that PIC time is very important. I do however disagree with the basing things strictly off of flight times without looking at the overall picture.
 
I do however disagree with the basing things strictly off of flight times without looking at the overall picture.

I said no such thing. In fact, if you will take the time to read, you''ll find I cited a number of criteria that different companies use for determining upgrade. Personally, I find flight time meaningless...I couldn't care how much time you have, but I certainly care how you fly. For the most part, airlines are more interested in your seniority than how well you fly. What you or I think, however, is irrelevant and meaningless.

If my airline was to get 10 more planes, according to your explanation, I'd all of a sudden be qualified as my DOH would be able to hold captain.

I said nothing remotely like that. It's not your flight experience that's lacking so much as your reading comprehension skills.

You're whining that you don't have the PIC experience to be considered for upgrade, and I told you that you can't expect to move up the rungs unless you have that experience. If your employer sets minimums and you don't meet them, what can be said? You're not the first to have to go get more experience.

Let's define "being qualified to upgrade."

As I stated before, that really depends on the operator. You are the one telling us you need to go get more PIC experience in order to hire on with other companies, and complaining that you lack the experience to upgrade, and then complaining that operators require the experience. Simple...either get qualified, or find someone else to work for. Qualified to upgrade is whatever your employer determines it to be.

What basic qualifications are those? In my previous Part 121 job, I passed the captain written, oral, sim check, IOE and the FAA observation ride, flew as a bid line captain. Sure, I had to meet the basic qualifications to upgrade, and that was ATP mins plus time in type, both of which I substantially exceeded at my upgrade time.

Which is all really quite meaningless as you no longer fly that type, or work for that company. You met the qualifications for that company, in that aircraft. Do you think the rest of the world owes you a living based on your past laurels?

You've stipulated that in order to get anywhere, you're going to need to take a pay cut (also irrelevant, but thanks for including it) and return to a place where you can increase your PIC experience...you've shown that you lack the PIC experience to move up in the world to where ever it may be that you wish to be. With this in mind, you've set the ground rules...you lack experience, you need experience, you know what you need to do, and you thinnk it's "crap." Tough. You meet the requirements, or you don't. If you don't, you can whine about it, or go get qualified.

You can't tell me that a pilot who hasn't flown anything bigger than a Caravan or a Beech 99 is better qualified than another pilot with thousands of hours in type (say 737) who hasn't been able to upgrade in their current position because of their seniority and/or the financial condition of their company.

I told you no such thing. You told us. You told us you can't upgrade where you are (for whatever reason...which is also irrelevant), and can't make it where you want to be hired because you lack their qualifications. You told us that. Base on what you have told us, if you lack the qualifications, go get them. Or buy the company and change them. Which do you prefer?
 
OK, so much wasted bandwidth there avbug.

I'm not looking to leave anywhere, but here is my basic argument:

Take a guy who has 1,300 hours PIC in a Beech 99, no type ratings, zero jet time, zero Part 121 experience. That person meets the hiring requirements of SWA or Alaska for example to sling gear in a 737 for 5-10 years or whatever the upgrade time goes for at those airlines.

Take another guy who has 600 hours of turbine PIC flying Part 121, several type ratings, a couple thousand hours in the right seat of a 737 flown under the same rules as Alaska or SWA. This guy is *NOT* qualified.

I call that shallow.
 
I'm not looking to leave anywhere, but here is my basic argument:

Take a guy who has 1,300 hours PIC in a Beech 99, no type ratings, zero jet time, zero Part 121 experience. That person meets the hiring requirements of SWA or Alaska for example to sling gear in a 737 for 5-10 years or whatever the upgrade time goes for at those airlines.

Take another guy who has 600 hours of turbine PIC flying Part 121, several type ratings, a couple thousand hours in the right seat of a 737 flown under the same rules as Alaska or SWA. This guy is *NOT* qualified.

I call that shallow.

This post just proves my point. PIC time means more than all the rest of the experience combined. This is not shallow, this means proving oneself. The B99 driver in your example has shown he can survive alone in all the inconceivable combinations of bad weather/ATC screwups/maintenance problems that can come along in those 1300 hours. The guy whose swinging gear for a couple thousand hours and has 600 PIC hasn't proven anything except that he can get along with his captains.

Right, wrong, or indiferrent, this is the way this business is and how its always been.
 

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