Immediate 2% pay increase at ASA--->

[Papa Woody]

Fire ALPA!

What the heck are they doing, besides taxing my paycheck?

 

[On Your Six]

Fire ALPA!

What the heck are they doing, besides taxing my paycheck?

Hey you can order an extra soft taco every time you go to Taco Bell with that 2% bump up... Don't be so greedy! I'll bet you that your ALPA dues help to pay for some great rounds of golf...

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Fire ALPA!

What the heck are they doing, besides taxing my paycheck?

Having spent all day yesterday with your Contract Adminstrator and NC, I am fairly confident I know what they are doing...but what is it you think they are doing (or not doing) and what would you like them to do better to accomplish your goals? You DO understand the NMB situation at the moment, right?

-Neal

 

[Bluto]

Understanding?! That's not nearly as fun as ignorant ranting!

 

[amcnd]

Thats .8 more then they were offering SkyWest pilots!!

 

[Halo_RJdriver]

Thats .8 more then they were offering SkyWest pilots!!

Uh YEah are you really getting 2%???

Lets see it in writing or stop the trailer posts.

 

[Skaff]

That was the Skywest 1.2% that we rejected, plus a .8% that they were planning on giving you.

 

[ASAFOE120]

Fire ALPA!

What the heck are they doing, besides taxing my paycheck?

We havent been offered a 2% pay raise or any other kind of raise. I think he is saying that if we got rid of ALPA they wouldnt be taking out the 2% from our paycheck and it would be like a raise.

At least thats what it meant to me when I read Papa's post.

Oh well, whatever.

 

[sstearns2]

Having spent all day yesterday with your Contract Adminstrator and NC, I am fairly confident I know what they are doing...but what is it you think they are doing (or not doing) and what would you like them to do better to accomplish your goals? You DO understand the NMB situation at the moment, right?

-Neal

What's the NMB situation?

Scott

 

[BluDevAv8r]

What's the NMB situation?

Scott

I'll give Papa Woody a chance to respond first...and once he's had a chance to speak his peace, I'll throw my worthless 2 cents in on the subject.

-Neal

 

["GO AROUND"]

You think the neg. committe hasn't beat their heads against the wall the 240 times that they've met with mngmnt over the last three years? That's two thirds of a Year! I don't know where they get the restraint they have. I'd have reached across the table and strangled the company's neg. team by now.

They are constrained by the RLA and everything that goes into a CBA at an airline. As long as the company doesn't do anything too stupid the mediator will give them leeway. The only real power that a labor group has is self help and there are steps to get there. Very long ones for us I guess. I don't know all about the process but, I do know it gets frustrating. I was at TSA in 2000 when we came up to the strike deadline twice. It was frustrating then and it is now.

But to throw the baby out with the bathwater just cause you think they aren't doing anything is stupid and won't make it better. If you think you can do better, then do it. Get involved, but don't say they aren't doing anything.

 

[Cardinal]

Fire ALPA!

What the heck are they doing, besides taxing my paycheck?

If you're so shortsighted so as to say something like that, you deserve whatever you'll get.

 

[777_Jackpot]

About Freakin' Time

I'm with you Papa Woody. It's about time someone has said what a lot of us have been thinking for some time now. Although I am convinced the unions intentions are sincere, their necessity has long been approaching extinction. The methods they employ and the advice they solicit are out-of-date and ineffective and resemble the tactics of a club more then a professional organization. Furthermore, the fact that I am forced to surrender 2% of my already small paycheck is absurd and borderline extortion.

777JP

 

[701EV]

Papawoody & 777_jackpot

Why in the world did you guys apply for a job at an airline that has ALPA on the property.

If you don't like ALPA, quit. You don't have to belong to ALPA but you due have to pay dues.

Grow up and quit your crying or find a new line of work!

701EV

 

[Tim47SIP]

extortion?

I think the problem here is that many of us come to an ALPA carrier with open minds and for some people it may not be what they expected. I do know one thing, if there were no provisions for a "closed shop", ALPA would cease to exist. The jury is still out for me, as all I can do is wait and see the outcome. I have noticed (after dealing with several unions that deal with military contractors) that unions are their own worst enemies.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

All of you that bash ALPA have obviously never experienced the corruptive powers of the Teamsters. Man were they bad.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Papawoody & 777_jackpot

Why in the world did you guys apply for a job at an airline that has ALPA on the property.

If you don't like ALPA, quit. You don't have to belong to ALPA but you due have to pay dues.

Grow up and quit your crying or find a new line of work!

701EV

DITTO!

 

[jehtplane]

Papawoody & 777_jackpot

Why in the world did you guys apply for a job at an airline that has ALPA on the property.

If you don't like ALPA, quit. You don't have to belong to ALPA but you due have to pay dues.

Grow up and quit your crying or find a new line of work!

701EV

My thought's exactly

 

[Phony Marconi]

I'd volunteer DOUBLE my ALPA garnish.....that's 4%....if the Neanderthal's who post here and are too stupid to realize they're being robbed, would justify ALPA's dues in any way....

This ain't a fraternity party or a football game. It's YOUR MONEY!

Quit being so proud of belonging to a group just for its own sake. The cost of this membership is high, with little to show for it except an empty 3-ring binder and some flashy stickers.....

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Space People

 

[777_Jackpot]

Welcome to the 3rd grade...Come on in!

Papawoody & 777_jackpot

Why in the world did you guys apply for a job at an airline that has ALPA on the property.

If you don't like ALPA, quit. You don't have to belong to ALPA but you due have to pay dues.

Grow up and quit your crying or find a new line of work!

701EV

Well I hope you're kidding. Why did we apply to an airline that has ALPA on property. Unfortunately, there are not many other alternatives. The insidious nature of ALPA is such that all reputable non-union shops are overrun by groundless promises of more money, more days off and a better quality of life. Meanwhile, 2% pay and a hundred Wilson Polls later, management and the workers are at a standoff and I have a guy telling me "If you don't like ALPA, quit." There is much to say about professionalism. An industry comprised of professionals, such as in the airline industry, is more then capable of producing an atmosphere conducive to productivity and common ground with managment, without the use of ALPA. A paradigm shift is no longer a good idea, it is a necessity if the repect of this profession is to be maintained.

777JP

 

[Skaff]

Your lucky to get 2% from Skywest. But if they hadn't bought you, you'de probably have been in Comair's same boat, or in Mesa's. What is the better?

 

[atrdriver]

Quit being so proud of belonging to a group just for its own sake. The cost of this membership is high, with little to show for it except an empty 3-ring binder and some flashy stickers.....

Until you have a situation where you need their legal or medical services. Ask someone who has had ALPA aeromedical go to bat for them after losing a medical, or had ALPA defend them when the feds come knocking. That's by far the most important reason to be an ALPA member in my opinion. The way the local MEC's are run is up to that MEC and their membership. I think it's funny that most of those who cry and moan about how ALPA doesn't do anything and charges too much have NEVER been to an MEC meeting. If you want to change it then volunteer and make your suggestions.

 

[Russ]

I firmly believe you don't appreciate something till its taken away. That 2% would feel like a small price when your paying for a lawyer to represent you at a hearing with the company. How many other situations are there?

 

[Phony Marconi]

Until you have a situation where you need their legal or medical services. Ask someone who has had ALPA aeromedical go to bat for them after losing a medical, or had ALPA defend them when the feds come knocking.

Very good point....I didn't think along those lines. A good value, indeed.

I was only considering the current issues with the labor contract and ALPA's seemingly-powerless embarrasment in the face of management's overwhelming control of the pace of negotiations.

 

[Nindiri]

I have my job today because of ALPA aeromedical, so 2% is a small price for me.

 

[Huck]

'd volunteer DOUBLE my ALPA garnish.....that's 4%....if the Neanderthal's who post here and are too stupid to realize they're being robbed, would justify ALPA's dues in any way...

Not my forum, but I stop by to check on ASA every once in a while....

I was your Safety Commitee chair in the latter 90's. My name is Steve G. and if you ask enough folks with ~10 years or more seniority some of them may remember me.

If you want to feel better about your dues, find a senior pilot and ask them the details of the 2311 and 7529 accident investigations.

In a nutshell, the 2311 pilots were blamed for the crash of a Brasilia back in 1991. The manufacturers determined that the pilots must have put the props in reverse in flight. The pilots were conveniently dead. Who was going to defend them - their widows?

I personally know 6 line pilots there who stepped up and were members of the NTSB investigation. It cost them bouts of PTSD, tons of their off time (ALPA leave didn't exist) and cost 2 of them their marriage.

In the end, the pilots were cleared and the blame focussed on the prop governor. LIVES WERE SAVED due to the changes made after the investigation.

I will never grumble about dues, not after seeing what incredible resources are brought to bear after an accident.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

People tend to need a target to place their misery and blame on...when things aren't going well. If 9/11 never happened and concessions weren't taken on many properties, and furloughs never occurred, do you think people would be so upset at ALPA? Probably not...but people in bad situations and people whose expectations were not met usually need to find a place to target their blame...

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

What's the NMB situation?

Scott

For those who don't know, the National Mediation Board is the governmental agency tasked with administering the Railway Labor Act and overseeing all airline labor negotiating processes. The NMB is run by 3 presidential appointees. 1 of those 3 must always be from the political party that is opposite of that of the president. All significant NMB decisions are made at the appointee level and majority rules. The actual mediation of airline cases is conducted by professional mediators who all have previous experience in either the railroad or airline industries (in either management or union roles...or both).

Unfortunately, politics is the name of the game when it comes to the NMB. The NMB controls the ultimate leverage point for a pilot group - the credible threat of a legal work stoppage. If you don't have access to that threat, then there reaches a point where the company folds its arms and says "here is the last and final deal...it is all we are going to do until you can get a release...and since we don't think you are going to get a release...this is the most that we will put on the table for now." Thus, the composition of the NMB and the politics that surrounds this agency are critical to the level of success in any airline negotiations process.

The last successful pilot strike at the "regional" level occurred under a labor-friendly NMB back in 2001 when the Comair pilots walked for 89 days. The airline labor world lost a friend when one of the NMB members was replaced with a friend of management several years ago. Since then, the only releases that have been granted were due to management wanting the release as well...We can use the Mesaba pilots as well as Northwest mechanics as an example of this fact.

National politics aside, there absolutely exists important politics when it comes to the administration in power and how that plays into the airline labor world. Currently 2/3 of the NMB is made up of pro-business appointees. The 3rd board member is an ex-TWA MEC Chairman and is absolutely a friend of the line pilot. Until the balance changes, you won't see very many labor-friendly decisions at the NMB...which is directly connected to the presidential administration.

It is very distressing hear about the ASA situation as they enter their 4th year of negotiations. ASA started bargaining 2 months after we did and they currently have only 13 sections complete. Time will tell what happens to the ASA pilots with respect to the NMB and the possibility of a release...but it doesn't look good right now at all.

The Board members are not running the NMB in a fair and balanced manner whatsoever and that is having a profound effect on all contract negotiations over the past few years (and the ones ongoing as we speak). They control whether a labor group gets released as well as the timing and location of the meetings. This is a very difficult time for airline labor obviously.

-Neal

 

[Sinca3]

Thanks

Not my forum, but I stop by to check on ASA every once in a while....

I was your Safety Commitee chair in the latter 90's. My name is Steve G. and if you ask enough folks with ~10 years or more seniority some of them may remember me.

If you want to feel better about your dues, find a senior pilot and ask them the details of the 2311 and 7529 accident investigations.

In a nutshell, the 2311 pilots were blamed for the crash of a Brasilia back in 1991. The manufacturers determined that the pilots must have put the props in reverse in flight. The pilots were conveniently dead. Who was going to defend them - their widows?

I personally know 6 line pilots there who stepped up and were members of the NTSB investigation. It cost them bouts of PTSD, tons of their off time (ALPA leave didn't exist) and cost 2 of them their marriage.

In the end, the pilots were cleared and the blame focussed on the prop governor. LIVES WERE SAVED due to the changes made after the investigation.

I will never grumble about dues, not after seeing what incredible resources are brought to bear after an accident.

Steve......Thanks for shedding some accurate light on ALPA dues at work,
this was a great example!! Many of the pilots at ASA weren't here when that was taking place so have no idea that it even occured.

Cheers
Hoping to be in purple sooner rather then later!