Imams vs. US Airways

[TWA Dude]

In an earlier post on another thread he mentioned that he is a card-carrying member of the ACLU.

Does that mean you're not? What do you have against civil liberties? Are you a fascist?

 

[atrdriver]

If the PIC gets fired for not following company policy he loses his authority. 'nuff said.

You know, you can talk in circles all you want. If a company fired a pilot for denying boarding to someone he considered to be a threat to the safety of the flight and he could back that up with a reason the company would be screwed in the subsequent wrongful termination case. If you want to let anyone on board your aircraft, regardless of what type of behavior they exhibit, because you believe in diversity and tolerance, more power to you. Luckilly I will never have to fly with you, because given a situation like that, if I was your FO, that plane would not leave with me in the seat. My life and the lives of my passengers is more important to me than your sense of fair play. You probably don't like flying with FFDOs either, do you?

 

[SkiFishFly]

Were there legitimately suspicious actions involved or just ignorance?

I just wonder what makes you such an authority on what constitutes legitimately suspicious actions? Have any military training? How about training in pre-operational probing of enemy forces?
How do you know these actions were not carried out deliberately to discover what the reaction might be? How do you know this was not part of preparation and planning for a future operation?

 

[stonewall]

What do the Crusades have to do with religion?

Pretty much everything for the people fighting in them. You can't use the Crusades as an example of Christians murdering Jews and also as a nonreligious endeavor. Make up your mind.

If you want to believe they were "religious" murdering hoardes

I prefer to focus on modern day religious murdering hordes...AQ, Hamas, Hezbollah, JI and the like.

Simply praying does not. Ignorant people may not recognize normal prayer and thus report it as "suspicious" behavior.

IF the reports are correct, standing up in a crowded airplande, loudly reciting prayers, and sprinkling in anti-american statements does not constitute "simply praying."

Are you going to call me an Arab-lover next?

Uh, no. What kind of statement is this? If you're going to espouse the wonders of "logic, logic, logic" in previous posts, don't resort to antics like this when your argument falls apart. Or when you just can't think of a witty rejoinder.

Lemme get this straight. I choose not to answer your question so you think you can answer for me? Who's arrogant?

Paraphrasing YOUR words: 'Looks like you need sensitivity training...I do not.' You answered BOTH questions with that statement.

 

[atrdriver]

Does that mean you're not? What do you have against civil liberties? Are you a fascist?

The ACLU is not about civil liberty, it is about trying to make the US into the most liberal, PC place in the world.

 

[SkiFishFly]

What do you have against civil liberties? Are you a fascist?[/quot


Now that is funny.

What the present day ACLU decides to take on as cases these days has a definite anti-american, anti-government slant. They do have a lot of the same attitude that you display on this board - their position is always the correct one (just ask them) and if you are against what they support you are obviously a very un-educated individual...

 

[atrdriver]

...and if you are against what they support you are obviously a very un-educated individual...

Don't forget redneck, bible thumping red state moron.

 

[VABB]

If the PIC gets fired for not following company policy he loses his authority. 'nuff said.

Not if the PIC is following the FAR's and the FAR trumps the company policy. BTW, where is it a company policy that states you must carry passengers whom you find suspicious??

 

[VABB]

Does that mean you're not? What do you have against civil liberties? Are you a fascist?

No, but you are an idiot. The ACLU represents crybabies like yourself who get all teary-eyed because your backpack has to be searched.

And yes, I am NOT a member of the ACLU. Unlike you, I live in the real world.

 

[TWA Dude]

VABB: I think you're really a supporter of the ACLU but you haven't come out yet so you're overcompensating. Do you need a hanky and a hug?

 

[VABB]

VABB: I think you're really a supporter of the ACLU but you haven't come out yet so you're overcompensating. Do you need a hanky and a hug?

If I supported the ACLU I would be a whiney liberal just like you.

 

[stonewall]

VABB: I think you're really a supporter of the ACLU but you haven't come out yet so you're overcompensating. Do you need a hanky and a hug?

A hanky and a hug? Is this a veiled slight against homosexual men? I thought you were above such outrageous behavior...I think you might need sensitivity training after all. :laugh:

 

[Falconjet]

I just wonder what makes you such an authority on what constitutes legitimately suspicious actions? Have any military training? How about training in pre-operational probing of enemy forces?
How do you know these actions were not carried out deliberately to discover what the reaction might be? How do you know this was not part of preparation and planning for a future operation?

In my opinion, this is exactly what was going on.

That or they were simply looking for a lawsuit to perpetuate their victim mentality in the media.

I say good on the crew for doing something before it got out of hand.

FJ

 

[codeone]

Wtfo?

The problem with this entire situation is that while we continue to debate this issue on this thread and do nothing about it (unless you are in a serious leadership position somewhere unknown to the people on this thread), our government also continues to debate this issue and does very little about. Meanwhile, terrorist around the world (and probably here too) are plotting all kinds of s#*t. The borders are a mess, south and NORTH, yet we focus on immigration reform. Cargo container security is a joke, and I've seen 80 year old cripple men and women nearly strip-searched by TSA while others get nothing more than a cursory glance. Our system is broken and it will be exploited eventually and probably soon. Terrorists of all creeds are unfortunately pretty smart and often well financed.

Does racially profiling Arab and/or Muslim looking men/women really solve anything or should the larger picture be that anyone traveling via air that poses a threat to the crew, any other passenger, or anyone on the ground be dealt with in the same swift, aggressive, land short type of manner. A Muslim acting in an outrageous manner should be dealt with the same as a drunk redneck cursing at flight attendants or anyone else onboard. Is it unreasonable for the crew and passengers to know that no one on the plane has anything on their person or in their luggage that could do any damage what-so-ever to anyone or anything onboard because security is just that good? I mean we have a remote control car on freaking Mars but we don't have the technology to secure our borders and keep destructive things off of airplanes. YGTBSM!

How about we focus on making security foolproof to the max extent possible for everyone who flies as opposed to triple checking one racial/religious group and giving others a pass. Let’s not forget that 50% of the major terrorist type events that have occurred on US soil over the last 10-15 years or so were not executed by Islamic fundamentalist (OK City, Olympic Park, 911, WTC truck bomb).

We are dropping the ball, missing the big picture, or whatever cliché you would like to use, but the bottom line is that we are f@*ing up royally because we are looking through the soda straw here on both airline security and Nat’l security. Or is it just me? Rant over!

 

[ultrarunner]

What would you do if confronted with the same situation before takeoff?

Let's keep this debate honest, informative, and civilized. Thanks!

It would also be helpful to hear from US Airways pilots to see what actually happened.

Bunny

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/826056.html

A quote from the article:

"...The national Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) called for a congressional hearing about ethnic and religious profiling at airports..."

IMO, I think there SHOULD be a congressional hearing on ethnic and religious profiling. And in FUKING support of it!

PROFILE TILL IT HURTS!

Nuf said on that.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

You know, if I went over to the Mideast and flew on say Saudi Arabian Airlines wearing your classic Crusades garb with the white robe vest/red cross and started a light toned Crusades chant, I'd be kicked off their flight with the majority Muslim passengers voicing their concerns. I wonder if there is the equivalent of the ACLU over there that would start whining about my rights to act anyway I wanted to in sand land. I think not.

 

[ATRCAPT]

Start dipping all the bullets used in Iraq in Pigs Blood.
If you want to beat the enemy you have to understand them and fight at their level.
They wouldn't go to ALA if they have pig goo on them!

BINGO!!!!

 

[TWA Dude]

More info:

With respect to the flight in question, the crew became aware of suspicious
behavior during the boarding process of 6 individuals who were sitting in
unassigned seats and not in close proximity. Other passengers, along with
an off duty commuting flight attendant witnessed unusual behavior. Some of
the examples of behavior that was reported included:

· Changing seats, stating anti war, anti US-Iraqi involvement,
negative comments concerning the President of the United States.

· Two of the passengers requesting Seat Belt Extensions when their
body size did not appear to warrant their use; seat belt extensions were
instead rolled up and placed under the seats of the passengers.

· Modified reservations, paid by cash, one way ticketing.

These are a few examples of the observed behavior that led the crew, Station
management, and SOC to restrict travel for these individuals. The decisions
made by all the parties were made as a result of the behavior of the
passengers and not as a result of their ethnicity.

So now it's obvious that the complaints were made based on more than just some Muslims praying. End of story.

 

[Doug Parker]

.

Hang 'em high !!







.

 

[svcta]

So now it's obvious that the complaints were made based on more than just some Muslims praying. End of story.

This has been the info from word go, you turd! Are you changing your tune now? Sounds like typical liberal mid-stream horse changing. ACLU, my butt. This was part of the story from the absolute outset. You just got upset on someone else's behalf as a matter of course because it's the P.C. thing to do.

You people make me sick.

 

[atrdriver]

How about we focus on making security foolproof to the max extent possible for everyone who flies as opposed to triple checking one racial/religious group and giving others a pass. Let’s not forget that 50% of the major terrorist type events that have occurred on US soil over the last 10-15 years or so were not executed by Islamic fundamentalist (OK City, Olympic Park, 911, WTC truck bomb).

You mean like the Govt saying that no more than 2 men of middle eastern descent could be chosen for secondary screening? And while the others you mentioned were not done by muslim extremists, the first WTC bombing certainly was.

 

[dispatchguy]

When I was engaged back in 1991, my fiance went to the sandbox to play in Desert Storm as an Intelligence Analyst for GEN Schwarzkopf. I was in Iceland playing with the 57th FIS.

For a laugh, she sent me their in-country brief of what they could, or could not, do in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The list of could-nots was like 3 or 4 pages long, soldiers couldnt even have bikini pictures of their loved ones in their wallets, let alone Miss February showing everything for all to see. We had a poster in the base post office of what we could, and could not send in care packages to our soldiers over in the sandbox.

My fiance, being female (since we all know how much Islam loves women), even had to go further to show that she was respectful, and cover herself from head to toe if she were to ever go off post (this was before the balloon went up and the shooting war started).

I agree with the one poster earlier, this sounds suspiciously like CAIR was fomenting something to get some free publicity. Being a red-blood American, who remembers the horror of working a dispatch desk the morning of 9.11, this crew did everything right. If youre not sure, leave em behind. If the crew had asked me for a what should we do, that would be what I wouldve said - leave em behind. I'm not anti-Islam, for personally I dont give a damn what religion anyone is since I am not a religious person, HOWEVER, since we are in a shooting war against people who look a lot like the group that was traveling, and who are in the same religion, stuffs gonna happen.

I remember in June of 1991, I came home from Iceland on leave after my fiance had come back home from the sandbox, the Pan Am express gate at JFK was right next to the gate for that night's flight on Saudia to Riyadh, and there are about 300 Muslims all on the floor praying, it was a sight...

 

[codeone]

You mean like the Govt saying that no more than 2 men of middle eastern descent could be chosen for secondary screening? And while the others you mentioned were not done by muslim extremists, the first WTC bombing certainly was.

No, I mean primary screening for everyone, to include you and I, should be the absolute best that US tax dollars can buy, making secondary and tertiary screening not required. That is if we truly want safe skies, otherwise it's just perceived safety and the difference is--we had perceived safety prior to 911.

Yes, the first WTC bombing was executed by Muslim extremists, that accounts for 25% of the 4 terrorist acts I mentioned. 911 another 25%. The other 2 terrorist acts on US soil were American fanatical idiots who wanted to inflict mass casualties. Do those type individuals meet your secondary screening criteria or because they don't pray to Allah they get the express screening line? Search everybody and everything, period!

 

[SkiFishFly]

You know, if I went over to the Mideast and flew on say Saudi Arabian Airlines wearing your classic Crusades garb with the white robe vest/red cross and started a light toned Crusades chant, I'd be kicked off their flight with the majority Muslim passengers voicing their concerns. I wonder if there is the equivalent of the ACLU over there that would start whining about my rights to act anyway I wanted to in sand land. I think not.

They don't need the ACLU. They would either

1. Behead you
2. Lock you up and no one would know where you were.

 

[C5drvr]

"As I've written over and over you need to have a valid reason for your suspicions. The ultimate judge of that is our courts."

TWA Dude,

If you do not think in the post 9/11 world that 6 Muslim's or Imams all standing up together and praying onboard an aircraft is not suspicious or cause for concern than you need to pull your head out of your @$$. What about the rest of the passengers aboard that airplane? Don't they deserve to not fly in fear.

The Captain is responsible for the well being of everyone and if a small group causes concern than they should be removed! Sort it out in the terminal. If they check out, put them on the next flight, apologize and explain to them why they were removed. Surely they know about the recent attempts to blow up planes in London and if they are rational, peace loving peolpe they should understand. We can't afford to take chances in today's volatile, terrorist plagued world.

 

[fox3]

+1


Not hating on muslims either, as I know a lot of good muslims, but the extremists have hi-jacked their religion, and they're the problem, not the paranoid American.

What a load of ******************** this is. Good muslims -- YGBSM! Extremists hijacked their religion? The extremists are only doing what was taught by their false prophet mohammed. History doesn't lie.

 

[B73av8r]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

For your enlightenment.

 

[fox3]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

For your enlightenment.

Thanks for the link. My point exactly.

 

[schafjet]

The imam's said this was racial profiling. Maybe, but if the Arabs weren't doing a lions share of terrorism this would not be an issue. It's human nature to go on high alert when someone or something in your past has hurt you.

People are afraid of dogs, because they have been bit. People slow down, because they see a cop. People run when they see a female red head (oh... that's just me, my bad). What are we supposed to do, give you Allah loving, American hating people a big hug? Give me a break.

If the Arabs or Muslims would police their own extremists and demand that this terrorist stuff stop, I think you would probably see things happen a bit differently. There is no public outcry from the Arab world, why? Until you demand civility from you own community, don't demand civility from ours. The answers have to come from both sides. You can't kill us and then expect us to play nice.

 

[jj21211]

Great discussion guys! I've tried to learn as much as I can about this religion of peace,(sure, if EVERYONE'S A MUSLIM!) since 19 of these sh1theads crashed the planes and ruined my career. They want us all to learn about, understand, and respect them. But the more I've learned through the books, articles, news accounts, the more I'm convinced that the jihad is real. Our moderate muslim friends go about their lives assuming the world conflict won't be in their lifetimes so they don't relate to the average jihadi, and try to live like the rest of us, but the thought of the USA run by a caliphate, under sharia will bring a twinkle to their eye. CAIR's leaders have said publicly that they are not here to melt in the pot, but to spread islam through 'education'. I think these imams are trying to be the 'Rosa Parks' of muslim airline travellers and CAIR is only to happy to come to their aid. Any way , I've done what they asked, learned a bit about islam, and for the sake of my children and our world, I don't like what I see.
I would have thrown them off!