I'm not a proponent of PFT

[Coffee]

A slightly old advertisement reads: regional seeking applicants for the position of first officer, must have ATP, 1500 Hrs TT, and 500 ME.

So how is this not then PFT. If in order to apply you had to buy a private pilot, an instrument, a commercial, and a multiengine certificate. But then to gain time required for this ad the majority then buy at least two instructional certificates and more than likely had to buy the first 100 Hrs of multiengine to qualify to teach or fly it for someone else. How much does that add up to? If each certificate was only
3K and the ME aircraft could be rented at 100Hr. The min price an applicant would have to pay: 3K*6+10000 = 11,800. But that would not include the additional hours or the ATP, so to adjust just for the costs of a generic ATP add another 1000. 12,800. But that would not be the only costs one would have to consider, how many have that sitting around? So more than likely an educational loan was taken out maybe at the toon of 5-8% and if the payments only lasted 3 years that would be around another 1000 so the figure would be closer to 13,800. Now for the minute consider the money you did not earn while you waited for a student or pushed freight when a similar individual was working himself up the corporate latter, but that makes me to melancholy to continue.

Placing that aside, isn’t this whole market set up to require pilots to pay and to do that constantly until with a carrier, but even these days that is not always true. The thing that really bogels my mind is that without a pilot the whole thing falls apart. So why are we the slaves instead of the kings?

 

[banned username 2]

Well obviously you are looking for flame bait...

Did you pay for college? Then using your "view" that would be PFT, you paid for your college education (training)... A Doctor and Lawyer would then be considered PFT too because they also paid for their "training"... You are really stretching it here...

PFT is when an employer requires you to pay for aircraft specific training in order to secure employment with that employer. Plain and simple explaination.

PFT is bad news.

 

[SDdriver]

COFFEE,

How many times do we have to tell you. Paying for your ratings is required to even be able to fly for hire. OK that is a requirment just like the above poster said, attorney, doctor, etc...

Paying a company to get employed is PFT..Can you just not figure it out? When you are qualified by having the basic ratings..then you go get a job that your current experiece level requires. 300hrs go fly traffic, instruct, tow banners, when you get 1200hrs, go fly freight, checks so on, get 2500hrs go get a regional job, corporate, charter...

PLease just do a search on PFT and get educated on the subject and also please don't start a flame thread.

Paying for private, inst, comm, multi, is required by all of us.

Paying XYZ company 10 or 15k so they will train you on their plane and then give you a job is PFT!! What good is that training going to do you if you leave them? None it is company specific and PFT.

Get it?

Sd

 

[LR25]

I dont have a CFI or MEI, what is my excuse for my first job?

I dont have any student loans, and Im not rich either.

Dude, get a grip, it will be all right.

 

[SDdriver]

I 2nd LR25,

I don't have a CFI MEI either, I made it and never PFT'd..why can't anyone else..?

No excuse to PFT, it is people that are impatient and don't want to earn their way. No respect for people like that!!

 

[T-Gates]

Ahhh.... what a refreshing change! PFT Flame Bait!

Geez.....will it ever end!?

--03M

 

[dmspilot00]

I don't think it's flamebait. Read the whole thing next time.

I propose that in order to avoid confusion the name is changed to PFJ = Pay For Job.

 

[bobbysamd]

Oh, well, I guess I'll bite, too . . .

Coffee's ad resonates from twelve-thirteen years ago. Those were standard regional quals back then.

Earning ratings to acquire those quals is not paying-for-training. Your Commercial and CFI are real credentials that are yours and can be marketed universally. Compare them to P-F-T, which requires you to remit money to an "employer" for your training as a condition of employment, and the training in question being applicable only to that company.

Everyone has to go to school and/or receive training to learn his/her trade. Earning your initial ratings and perhaps paying an examiner and renting an airplane for your ATP is schooling and training. Everyone has to pay tuition for his/her schooling and training. You cannot compare schooling and training to P-F-T.

 

[T-Gates]

I don't think it's flamebait. Read the whole thing next time.

I propose that in order to avoid confusion the name is changed to PFJ = Pay For Job.

I did read the whole thing. Considering I've seen this question posed at least 20 different times. I'm gonna put it in a flamebait category.

And I think Pay-For-Job would be a misnomer, because you are not garunteed a job unless you pass the ride. You are just Paying for the Training.

--03M

 

[jergar999]

I am fairly slow, it took me a long time to understand the implications of paying for a job, so here is a basic story that details the whole principle. Bob just graduated from college, with a degree in aeronautical science. He goes back to his hometown, to XYZ airport and starts instructing. There are three main operators based at XYZ airport. One is a huge freight company that operates large aircraft, and pays appropriately. They usually hire pilots from one of the two other smaller freight companies on the field. Those companies operate small jets and turboprops, and require 2 pilots. Both companies operate on demand and bid on scheduled freight runs. We'll call them company A and B to keep it simple. Bob is tired of instructing, and like so many instructors yearns for the big iron days and the pay. Company A decides that if Bob pays them a certain amount, they will check him out in the airplane and he can fly as much as duty times will allow. The company is still collecting money for the flight from the freight or passengers. Bob pays for the turbine time (1 pilot job down, why pay a first officer if they'll pay you?). Some of Bob's friends hear about his plan, and decide to do the same, as they want a shot at the big time too. (several more pilot jobs down) Once the paid pilots are gone and everyone at company A is either a captain or paying, company A can underbid company B. Company B has two options now. They can shut the doors (more jobs gone) or charge pilots to fly right seat to remain competitive (more jobs gone). They go with the latter. Slowly over a period of years some retirements happen at the huge freight operator, and some promotions happen. This leaves several openings. All the local PFT folks have been salivating over this job, the company knows it, and will pay as low as the cheapest guy will work for. (1 job, not as good as it used to be) If companies A and B both had 3 aircraft each staffed with 3 crews to provide uninterrupted service, we started out with 36 paid pilot positions, and possibly after a few years a great job with the larger company. In this scenario, we end up with 18 paid positions at the 2 smaller companies, and a lesser job on the top end. This is certainly an oversimplified example, all taking place within a small and sealed environment, but its not unlike the real aviation world, which is smaller than a lot of people think. If a company needs two pilots for an aircraft, they should pay two. Once someone has paid for that job the company will probably never pay someone to take the seat, and a job is lost. One person might get ahead in his/her career, but he/she closes doors on the way up and makes things worse for everyone else.

 

[SDdriver]

JerGar999,

Absoulute applause!!!! VERY GOOD EXPLAINATION OF PFT!!!

If Coffee doesn't get it and anyone else that is considering PFT doesn't get it after reading your post, then there is no hope for them. I hope they all see the domino effect that you describe in your post. It expands at an exponential rate in the industry. It would be a great industry if there was not people out there that would sell their souls, or cut someone else's throat to get a flying job.

Please all, consider your industry as a whole, not just your personal career, you will find it pays off for you and everyone else in the end. Great explaination of what I mean, in the post above.

Sd

 

[LR25]

Think of it, if everyone would stop PFTing for about 6 months, where would the industry be?

How many people would be put back to work, regardless of the equipment, jets, twins, whatever, that deserve to be back, that have children to feed.

Not saying that the 300 hour wonder doesnt deserve it, but if they PFTed, they dont.

Can we switch this to an RJDC thread now?

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T 101

Originally posted by jergar999
If a company needs two pilots for an aircraft, they should pay two. Once someone has paid for that job the company will probably never pay someone to take the seat, and a job is lost. One person might get ahead in his/her career, but he/she closes doors on the way up and makes things worse for everyone else.

Excellent post about P-F-T.

Don't forget about the potential of fraud. P-F-T usually demands a big deposit up front. You have no assurances that your instructors are acting in your best interests. They are beholden to the company and not you, and may not treat you ethically. You might be washed out of training unreasonably and unfairly, i.e. conned, and never get your money back. There is at least one Florida P-F-T banner-tower who is proof positive of that.

The long and short of it that despite all anti-P-F-T education we dispense there are those who won't pay and those who will. All we can do is to keep reaching out to the uninformed.

 

[Timebuilder]

Hear, hear!!!

 

[SDdriver]

Coffee,

I am very curious why you start these threads about PFT and get many responses, but you never post any reply's?

If you are just starting FLAME, then just don't post. I hope you have read this thread very well, because you have some really intelligent people that have posted VERY GOOD explanations to why PFT is a very bad thing.

To all of you young/old guys or gals just starting in your career in aviation, I hope you also read this thread well and join the many other pilots out there that are trying to combat PFT. If we all stand up, especially you new guys, and force companies to pay us, there will be no PFT and you will see the level of pay increase to a respectable level. Don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution! Demand to be paid, and if they won't, walk away with your dignity and respect intact and be patient, you will get a job, you just have to work hard, work your way up from the bottom, and by all means don't take shortcuts, it will only hurt you in the end. Remember anything worthwhile in this life isn't easy. Good luck to you all, and by all means, demand to be PAID!

SD

 

[46Driver]

Just to throw fuel on the fire on a boring day.... I've asked about this at several of the squadrons I've been in and all you get is a blank look. Nobody understands what is unethical about it - the general consensus is you do what you have to do and if somebody isn't willing to pay the price, that's Darwin at work. Maybe the military bubbas have a different perspective coming from a ruthlessly competitive flight school environment to the exact opposite in a seniority based system.

 

[bobbysamd]

Just to throw fuel on the fire on a boring day.... I've asked about this at several of the squadrons I've been in and all you get is a blank look. Nobody understands what is unethical about it - the general consensus is you do what you have to do and if somebody isn't willing to pay the price, that's Darwin at work.

Situational ethics. I love it!!!!

 

[SDdriver]

Just out of curiosity did you read any of the above post? When someone PFT's they take the job away from many who are qualified. The company is now not only making money from flying people or frieght, they are now making money off of their pilots.

Did you pay the military to give you a job flying helos? NO you didn't. You signed up for a JOB JOB JOB..they PAY YOU..get it?

My god I can't believe why people can't understand this. When you pay a comany for training then they figure out that they don't have to pay you hardley anything to fly for them. Why do you think the pay sucks so bad in this industry, because companies don't have to pay pilots, they have gutless wonders paying them.

PLEASE read the post by jergar999 above. It explains it perfectly. Now after reading that, do you really think it is an ethical buisness practice and something that is productive for the industry.

I can just picture it, Daddy Daddy, there is a company that wants to hire me to fly a jet, can you believe it, I will get to wear a uniform and a hat and be a real pilot, can I just get a check for 15,000 dollars so they will hire me to make 18,000 my first year? Gosh I will only be making 3000 dollars my first year, but hey I will be flying right. GIVE ME A F**KING BREAK!!!!!!!!!!

SD

 

[46Driver]

Don't shoot the messenger - I'm just relaying an observation from a few different squadrons....

 

[SDdriver]

46Driver,

I wasn't ragging on you, just do me a favor, go tell your buddies to go and look in the dictionary at the definition of a job, it doesn't say anywhere in there anything about paying the employer.

Or better yet, copy jergar999 post word for word and take it to them and have them read it. Tell them to imagine getting out of the military and having 3 or 4 or 5 thousand hours in jets or turboprops, and going to apply for a job flying a corp jet or a freight jet, and having the chief pilot tell you sorry we are going to hire this 19yr old kid with 300 hours cause he is going to pay us 15k, think you would be pissed? All the hard work you have put in over your career to get to the point where you are at, earning it every step of the way, just to have some little punk with a fat check book take the job from you? Think you would be pissed? He hasn't earned one hour in his whole life, he has just cut a check for everything, and he gets it over you? YEAH PISSES ME OFF!! BIG TIME! I have never had that happen to me, but I have to friends of mine that are GREAT pilots and have really busted their ass hauling freight, towing banners, flying traffic, and living in their car or a closet the whole time, and who gets the jobs? Kids who's daddy's write a check for everything they ever do so they can have what they want when they want it. Look, my family was able to pay my way, but I never asked them to do it, I WORKED for what I have, and I was paid for my time in planes. Sorry if I am seeming pissed, but I am, This subject just really gets my blood boiling.

Well I have to go, time to go clock in at McDonalds.

Sd