ILS Approaches

[FN FAL]

I bet down the road a few years, there will be more and more accidents, due to poor airmanship.

Actually, down the road a few years, there will be less and less accidents due to great avionics. But that's not what's important right now.

 

[PositiveRate]

Carl,

Again, you've proven to me you're an idiot. I never said it was dangerous to fly a raw data approach, but thanks for reading incorrectly between the lines. I said it is expected of us that we be able to do it if needed.

At a past airline, I flew with a guy like you once and he was just about the worst pilot I've ever seen...not from a stick and rudder standpoint, but from a critical lack of decision making ability that lead him to want to do things like fly raw data approaches to mins. You're not flying checks or cargo into a mine somewhere...you're flying people who entrust their safety with you. When you do sh^t like that, it's very easy to get tunneled in on the ILS...it pulls away a layer of safety for no good reason and will make your FO less aware because he's busy making sure you don't F-up. You are comprimising safety and being stupid whether you'll admit it or not. For example...you lower gear at FAF and get a gear unsafe master warning 5 sec later. Descending on G/S with A/P on or off...which will likely be handled better? This is very basic stuff Carl.

Our FOM states that we are to USE all available automation when it's less than 100' & 3mi and that we will AUTOLAND when it's less than CATI. I know I can hand fly it down to mins with 1 eng, no prob...I do it every 6 mo in the sim and I hand fly visuals all the time. I like how you imply that it's our lack of skill of fear that leads us to question you...typical bravado bulls#^&.

Are you surprised that fellow professionals are calling you out on this...did you expect to be patted on the back for your superior skills? A squared has an orange that he thinks in similar to your apple. Maybe you could go land your RJ on a mining strip and go make a fruit salad together.

 

[kevdog]

hey, can you program this flight director thingy to snake you down a dogleg valley to line up on a mining strip on the opposite hillside with an 8% grade and put your wheels on the first 200'? That would be useful, the ILS I can usually work out ok on my own, but I do find myself concentrating when I'm taking a load into that mine.


I probably ought to stick with what I'm doing. I'm not sure how well I'd fit in in this brave new world where someone who flies an ILS by hand is a dangerous renegade.

You could in my airplane, circa 1970s. Automation is recommended according to our manuals, and we are supposed to use flight directors 100% of the time during flight. Might have something to do with flying a 572,000 lb airplane. We are also recommended to use automation during non-precision approaches for safety. As technique, most people hand-fly ILS approaches after glideslope track in VFR. In training it is common for the instructor to fail the FD to see if the pilots are paying attention. A safe pilot should be using all the information available, including cross-checking the other sides instruments.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

I never said that I had superior skill. Actually I made it a point to say that I didn't.

I can give you examples of pilots who are all into the automation, automation, automation (let's reprogram the FMS while getting a side step), that fly poorly. They will upgrade and preach the same thing to impressionable young FO's. Automation has a time and place. You and I see that line in a different location. It is my obligation to keep the pax safe. I do that by staying proficient. I just wish I could go six months between flying ILS's in actual and stay proficient.

I know that I'm not going to change your mind. I really don't care what level of automation you use, and when you use it. I guess we'll all be safe when airplanes are operated from gate to gate by computers and the "pilot" has never actually flown before.

 

[h25b]

You guys crack me up.

Our FOM requires us to maintain prof. in ALL levels of automation.

Positive rate, please explain to me how raw data is sooooo dangerous in actual. For me, it's simple. If the approach were to becomes unstabalized, I would go missed.

You say that not using automation doesn't make you a better pilot? Take two pilots, one who always uses automation for T/O and approach, and one who hardly uses them for T/O and approach. Who do you think is going to retain their skills at actually FLYING the airplane.

H25B, so you are saying that after 100 hours and a check ride once every 6 months make you proficient for life? Thanks for the pointer.

I'm not saying that I'm the best pilot or anything, but some of you guys are talking like a bunch of pansies. I do know that I won't be the one pi$$ing my pants if the AP/FD go TU on a real ILS.

"Attention folks, this is you captain. Our auto pilot just broke, but don't worry I've done this before......6 years ago."

On the ground: "Daddy, look at the pilots (H25B and Pos Rate), they are all wet and shaking, maybe they just got out of the pool."


I bet down the road a few years, there will be more and more accidents, due to poor airmanship.

Thanks for the support A Squared, at least there are a few pilots out there that aren't afraid of flying.

Afraid of flying ? Are you serious ? Listen, it sounds to me like you started out trying to impress us all with your hand flying ILS skills and the minute someone points out the flaw in your logic you're getting all defensive...

There are many ways to maintain your hand flying proficiency beyond insisting on hand flying every ILS approach in actual IMC conditions with passengers on board.

If the autopilot goes "TU" on an actual ILS approach, guess what, we can go missed too. Works both ways... To me that's just a given should you experience an avionics failure inside the FAF. But to me, stripping down the levels of automation designed to help you manage the situation just makes you that much less able to handle any situations that may arise. But hey, if it makes you feel better Yeager have a it.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Re-read my first post. I never said that I hand fly every ILS. Contrary to popular belief very few ILS approaches get even close to mins. Usually you see the runway before you even get to the marker. If the first poster would have asked "do you hand fly down to mins on an ILS in actual", my answer would be different. But that is now what he asked. Like I said, most ILS's are not even close to mins.

It's your decision to go missed if you lose the AP, I wouldn't fault anyone for doing that. For me, I would most likely continue... rather fly an approach with the AP off than a missed with no AP, as a missed would be more of a cluster.

If a situation arises, that AP can always be engaged pretty quick. It's not like I'm flying raw data inside the marker doing memory items and QRH for an engine fire.

Are there any QX CA's that want to chime in about hand flying CATIIIA approaches to 50' and 600 RVR?

 

[A Squared]

No, it doesn't...but it is kind sad that you guys don't have at least that.

I dopubt you'll find too many DC-6's with Flight Directors, although the Red Bull DC-6 might. My company has removed the auto pilots, they're a complicated and finicky system from a half a century ago. They were only a altitude and heading hold device anyway so thy wouldn't be much use on an ILS. We do have KLN-89B's though.

You could in my airplane, circa 1970s.

Unlikely. This particular mine is 80 nm from the nearest VOR and 40 nm from the nearest NDB. As far as I know Jeppesen doesn't publish airport data and RNAV waypoints for landing there, so you're kinda on your own.

A squared has an orange that he thinks in similar to your apple. Maybe you could go land your RJ on a mining strip and go make a fruit salad together.

Mmmmm, fruit. I like fruit. It keeps me healthy. Fruit salad is better. It has a variety of fruit. I would get bored eating the same kind of fruit every day.

 

[kevdog]

Unlikely. This particular mine is 80 nm from the nearest VOR and 40 nm from the nearest NDB. As far as I know Jeppesen doesn't publish airport data and RNAV waypoints for landing there, so you're kinda on your own.

AP takes HDG, INS/GPS or VHF NAV, so you could using the AP. Just tell it what to do and sit back and watch. If you program the PMS the airplane will also do vertical nav.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

...... so you could .......using the AP. ......Just tell it what to do and sit back and watch......

hhhmmm....sounds so easy! You haven't, by chance, flown a fully configured DC-6 have you? :laugh:

 

[wmuflyguy]

You could in my airplane, circa 1970s. Automation is recommended according to our manuals, and we are supposed to use flight directors 100% of the time during flight. Might have something to do with flying a 572,000 lb airplane. We are also recommended to use automation during non-precision approaches for safety. As technique, most people hand-fly ILS approaches after glideslope track in VFR. In training it is common for the instructor to fail the FD to see if the pilots are paying attention. A safe pilot should be using all the information available, including cross-checking the other sides instruments.

It isn'tt just your 572,000lb airplane, the 50,000lb RJ operators are the same way.

It is all about liability.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Yeah!...what HE said!

I typed a complete response but then the cold medicine started kicking in.....

I'll just coattail his response......

We are also recommended to use automation during non-precision approaches for safety. As technique, most people hand-fly ILS approaches after glideslope track in VFR. In training it is common for the instructor to fail the FD to see if the pilots are paying attention. A safe pilot should be using all the information available, including cross-checking the other sides instruments.

to answer the original question......most people that I've flown with, whether 91,121,135 etc....stick to this guideline (see the bold type).

Unless, of course, their OPSPEC prohibits it :uzi:

.I like to fly an occasional manual, raw data approach, in VMC, just to break the monotony.

I think I still like to fly airplanes after all!

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Carl,

Again, you've proven to me you're an idiot. I never said it was dangerous to fly a raw data approach, but thanks for reading incorrectly between the lines. I said it is expected of us that we be able to do it if needed.

At a past airline, I flew with a guy like you once and he was just about the worst pilot I've ever seen...not from a stick and rudder standpoint, but from a critical lack of decision making ability that lead him to want to do things like fly raw data approaches to mins. You're not flying checks or cargo into a mine somewhere...you're flying people who entrust their safety with you. When you do sh^t like that, it's very easy to get tunneled in on the ILS...it pulls away a layer of safety for no good reason and will make your FO less aware because he's busy making sure you don't F-up. You are comprimising safety and being stupid whether you'll admit it or not. For example...you lower gear at FAF and get a gear unsafe master warning 5 sec later. Descending on G/S with A/P on or off...which will likely be handled better? This is very basic stuff Carl.

Our FOM states that we are to USE all available automation when it's less than 100' & 3mi and that we will AUTOLAND when it's less than CATI. I know I can hand fly it down to mins with 1 eng, no prob...I do it every 6 mo in the sim and I hand fly visuals all the time. I like how you imply that it's our lack of skill of fear that leads us to question you...typical bravado bulls#^&.

Are you surprised that fellow professionals are calling you out on this...did you expect to be patted on the back for your superior skills? A squared has an orange that he thinks in similar to your apple. Maybe you could go land your RJ on a mining strip and go make a fruit salad together.

This post by Positive Rate is 100% correct (except for the 100'&3mi., I think he means 1000' & 3mi.).

No pilot can possibly fly an ILS approach as well as a good autopilot. So when safety is of the highest of priority and the weather is less than VFR, it should be the auto flight system until the runway is in sight.

Machoism has been identified by the FAA as a hazardous attitude. The antidote for this condition is to come to the realization that taking chances is foolish, in other words, grow up a little more.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

You are taking a chance any time you get in an airplane. It's all about risk management. You are much safer calling in sick that going to work.

I didn't think I would see the day where another pilot, especially one with as much experience as yourself, would see a hand flown ILS as macho.

Once again I will state for the record that I never said that I was a super pilot, better than everyone else. I never said I flew raw data to mins either.

I'm still waiting for others to weigh in on how they fly ILS's.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Carl,

Your exact words could have been mine 20-years ago..

Now it is most important to master the autoflight system to relieve workload for both the FP and the NFP. Autoflight is especially important to prevent altitude busts. Pilot stick and rudder skills are important too, but everything I learned in terms of scan and mastered in the 727 is no longer of much importance in the automated airplanes. Now days, most pilots I know hand fly to FL180 or so, and then they turn off the autopilot the when the runway is in sight. This seems to work best.

Undaunted Flyer

 

[A Squared]

AP takes HDG, INS/GPS or VHF NAV, so you could using the AP. Just tell it what to do and sit back and watch. If you program the PMS the airplane will also do vertical nav.

Maybe I wasn't very clear. You don't have any meaningful coordinates for the runway end. It's a dirt strip on the side of a mountain. When you're down *in* a valley, 80 nm from the nearest VOR, you don't have VHF NAV. The GPS/INS can give you all kinds neato informatin, about where *you* are, but if your INS doesn't know where the end of runway is, your position is relatively meaningless. Oh, and the approach is around a hill and down a valley, otherwise you're too high to descend to the runway.

I'm curious how you plan to program a an autopilot to take you right to the end of the runway when you don't know exactly where the runway is, and by the same token you don't know exactly where you are relative to the end of the runway.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Maybe I wasn't very clear. You don't have any meaningful coordinates for the runway end. It's a dirt strip on the side of a mountain. When you're down *in* a valley, 80 nm from the nearest VOR, you don't have VHF NAV. The GPS/INS can give you all kinds neato informatin, about where *you* are, but if your INS doesn't know where the end of runway is, your position is relatively meaningless. Oh, and the approach is around a hill and down a valley, otherwise you're too high to descend to the runway.

I'm curious how you plan to program a an autopilot to take you right to the end of the runway when you don't know exactly where the runway is, and by the same token you don't know exactly where you are relative to the end of the runway.

A Squared - You and your 6 are a special exception to everything about autopilots and autoflight. Keep up the tradition of flying.

 

[kevdog]

Maybe I wasn't very clear. You don't have any meaningful coordinates for the runway end. It's a dirt strip on the side of a mountain. When you're down *in* a valley, 80 nm from the nearest VOR, you don't have VHF NAV. The GPS/INS can give you all kinds neato informatin, about where *you* are, but if your INS doesn't know where the end of runway is, your position is relatively meaningless. Oh, and the approach is around a hill and down a valley, otherwise you're too high to descend to the runway.

I'm curious how you plan to program a an autopilot to take you right to the end of the runway when you don't know exactly where the runway is, and by the same token you don't know exactly where you are relative to the end of the runway.

The same way you find the airport via hand flying it. If you don't know where the airport is, how do you find it hand flying it? You are confusing me, AP can either be controlled by heading, speed, vertical speed, or other nav means. If you can handfly the airplane to the airport, you can use the AP as well.

 

[MDAutry]

for some reason my FD never works...

 

[VNugget]

The same way you find the airport via hand flying it. If you don't know where the airport is, how do you find it hand flying it? You are confusing me, AP can either be controlled by heading, speed, vertical speed, or other nav means. If you can handfly the airplane to the airport, you can use the AP as well.

So I'm trying to picture what you're saying in the context of him snaking his way down a valley, and the best I can come up with is him twisting the heading and altitude knobs around and flying the airplane like an etch-a-sketch.

What am I missing?

Gawrsh, sorry but unless I somehow expend my tiny quota of smartassery every once in a while, I will burst

 

[kevdog]

So I'm trying to picture what you're saying in the context of him snaking his way down a valley, and the best I can come up with is him twisting the heading and altitude knobs around and flying the airplane like an etch-a-sketch.

What am I missing?

Gawrsh, sorry but unless I somehow expend my tiny quota of smartassery every once in a while, I will burst

yep, yough gawt it. if you can't operate an etch-a-sketch, you shouldn't be operating an airplane.