ILS Approaches

[FN FAL]

Maybe I wasn't very clear. You don't have any meaningful coordinates for the runway end. It's a dirt strip on the side of a mountain. When you're down *in* a valley, 80 nm from the nearest VOR, you don't have VHF NAV. The GPS/INS can give you all kinds neato information, about where *you* are, but if your INS doesn't know where the end of runway is, your position is relatively meaningless. Oh, and the approach is around a hill and down a valley, otherwise you're too high to descend to the runway.

I'm curious how you plan to program a an autopilot to take you right to the end of the runway when you don't know exactly where the runway is, and by the same token you don't know exactly where you are relative to the end of the runway.

In this day and age, I don't know why we don't have the ability to use the rest of the airspace and the rest of the airports, citing the approach to the "mine" that you mentioned earlier. Other than to say, that liability and slow moving bureaucracy keeps it from happening...not saying that's a bad thing. But given todays technology, there's nothing to prevent navigation like you mentioned but the rules.

In theory, you could use something similar to the Avidine systems and other currently available equipement, to fly a "Mine 1 Arrival" like you would on a reliable FMS. In VMC...I'm sure that view out the window would be unsettling for some, but it could be done.

 

[kevdog]

So I'm trying to picture what you're saying in the context of him snaking his way down a valley, and the best I can come up with is him twisting the heading and altitude knobs around and flying the airplane like an etch-a-sketch.

What am I missing?

Gawrsh, sorry but unless I somehow expend my tiny quota of smartassery every once in a while, I will burst

I'm still trying to picture what this has to do with an ILS approach?

 

[Say Again Over]

A Squared, give me a break, you are a bush pilot, what you do has no resemblance to what happens at a modern airline operation, as far as the A/P on or not, who cares if you hand fly every approach, if you are cpt, that is your decision, everyone on this board does a bit of hand flying based on the situation. I personally turn off the A/P at 500 ft , I guess that means I won't remember what to do on my six month ride?? The DC 10 guy probably forgot more than the Carls of the world will ever know! Flame suit on.

 

[CE402]

Flight Director = Piece of equipment on 10% of the fleet that gets in the way of the AI when you accidentally turn it on.

Autopilot = Good for keeping the airplane straight and level (more or less) while you brief an approach. Approaches? Never trust anything to take you below 500' that can't buy you beer, or isn't as expensive as a house.

Not many ILS's are to mins? Where is this place with the ILS's not to mins? Do the streams flow with beer and do pretzels grow on trees?

Sorry I don't do big planes.....I buy my ticket and let the guys with the big suitcases full of PFM take me above 7000'.

 

[JimNtexas]

Did Luke need an FD or autopilot in his [SIZE=-1]T-16 Skyhopper to shoot womp rats in Begger's Canyon?

I think not. [/SIZE]

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Did Luke need an FD or autopilot in his [SIZE=-1]T-16 Skyhopper to shoot womp rats in Begger's Canyon?

I think not. [/SIZE]

Now you've done it!! Gone and brought the Force into the equasion!!

Now we will be arguing about using the force vs not using the force on tight approaches!

Next thing you know we will have to be Force Sensitive to obtain an ATP.......Thanks Alot there bub!!

 

[A Squared]

The same way you find the airport via hand flying it. If you don't know where the airport is, how do you find it hand flying it? You are confusing me, AP can either be controlled by heading, speed, vertical speed, or other nav means. If you can handfly the airplane to the airport, you can use the AP as well.

Oh, I see, you're just talking about steering it around by twiddling the heading bug (so to speak). Hmmmm, I though that when you said "program the PMS" you actually meant you'd program the PMS, then "sit back and watch" like you said.

You're really not talking about programing anything at all, you're talkiing about flying it through the autopilot controls instead of the flight controls. Well sure, I suppose you could do that, but that's certainly not what programming means, and you wouldn't be sitting back and watching, you'd be pretty busy with that heading bug.

 

[pilot error]

Maybe I wasn't very clear. You don't have any meaningful coordinates for the runway end. It's a dirt strip on the side of a mountain. When you're down *in* a valley, 80 nm from the nearest VOR, you don't have VHF NAV. The GPS/INS can give you all kinds neato informatin, about where *you* are, but if your INS doesn't know where the end of runway is, your position is relatively meaningless. Oh, and the approach is around a hill and down a valley, otherwise you're too high to descend to the runway.

I'm curious how you plan to program a an autopilot to take you right to the end of the runway when you don't know exactly where the runway is, and by the same token you don't know exactly where you are relative to the end of the runway.

though it has nothing to do with flying an ils, if you can save your own waypoints with entered cords in whichever gps you have it could be done quite easily. wouldn't be tough to figure out the coords on the end of the runway if you and the gps were there at the same time (presumably after landing, not 10' above the runway).

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Just to put things in perspective for large glass airplanes such as the 777: The F/D is on 100% of the time from take off to landing. The A/P is usually turned on any where from 12,000 feet to cruise level off. Most pilots have the A/P on by FL180. It remains on until about 10,000 feet or anytime thereafter with most pilots shutting it off by about 3000 feet if the field is VFR. For IFR the A/P will usually be on until the runway is in sight. Of course for an autoland it will be on until the airplane is at taxi speed. Autolands are only used when the weather is at CAT I minimums or below, or for A/P currency. No one ever flies with total raw data. Auto-throttles are used nearly 100% of the time except about 15% of pilots turn off the A/T's for approach and landing. The auto-brakes are used for 100% of all takeoffs and landings.

Some people ask if automation takes the fun out? My answer is that it does not. The automation is all gee-wiz stuff and exciting to operate.

If you like the Honda Gold Wing you'll love advanced airplanes. If you like Harleys then you'll go for A Squared's DC-6. It's all a matter of choice from one extreme to the other and anywhere in between.

So you decide, which do you like, the Gold Wing or the Harley?

 

[cezzna]

I believe the Luftansa approach is the best way to handle the automation use or not use question. I agree that overuse of automation leads to a deterioration of some flying skills. I also agree that always flying raw data is just bravado. In Luftansa they require their pilots to split flying into thirds. One third of the time full automation, one third of the time partial automation which would probably be hand flying with the flight director. The last third being raw data. The lower the weather the more automation should be used. This keeps proficiency with and without the automation. I think we've all seen pilots who can use the hell out of the autopilot, but are like a fish out of water when it's turned off. We've also seen the raw data macho types who can't run the FMS other than direct to a fix. Raw data to mins. when you have a good autopilot and flight director is just stupid.