ILS Approaches

[Uncle Sparky]

Yeah!...what HE said!

I typed a complete response but then the cold medicine started kicking in.....

I'll just coattail his response......

We are also recommended to use automation during non-precision approaches for safety. As technique, most people hand-fly ILS approaches after glideslope track in VFR. In training it is common for the instructor to fail the FD to see if the pilots are paying attention. A safe pilot should be using all the information available, including cross-checking the other sides instruments.

to answer the original question......most people that I've flown with, whether 91,121,135 etc....stick to this guideline (see the bold type).

Unless, of course, their OPSPEC prohibits it :uzi:

.I like to fly an occasional manual, raw data approach, in VMC, just to break the monotony.

I think I still like to fly airplanes after all!

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Carl,

Again, you've proven to me you're an idiot. I never said it was dangerous to fly a raw data approach, but thanks for reading incorrectly between the lines. I said it is expected of us that we be able to do it if needed.

At a past airline, I flew with a guy like you once and he was just about the worst pilot I've ever seen...not from a stick and rudder standpoint, but from a critical lack of decision making ability that lead him to want to do things like fly raw data approaches to mins. You're not flying checks or cargo into a mine somewhere...you're flying people who entrust their safety with you. When you do sh^t like that, it's very easy to get tunneled in on the ILS...it pulls away a layer of safety for no good reason and will make your FO less aware because he's busy making sure you don't F-up. You are comprimising safety and being stupid whether you'll admit it or not. For example...you lower gear at FAF and get a gear unsafe master warning 5 sec later. Descending on G/S with A/P on or off...which will likely be handled better? This is very basic stuff Carl.

Our FOM states that we are to USE all available automation when it's less than 100' & 3mi and that we will AUTOLAND when it's less than CATI. I know I can hand fly it down to mins with 1 eng, no prob...I do it every 6 mo in the sim and I hand fly visuals all the time. I like how you imply that it's our lack of skill of fear that leads us to question you...typical bravado bulls#^&.

Are you surprised that fellow professionals are calling you out on this...did you expect to be patted on the back for your superior skills? A squared has an orange that he thinks in similar to your apple. Maybe you could go land your RJ on a mining strip and go make a fruit salad together.

This post by Positive Rate is 100% correct (except for the 100'&3mi., I think he means 1000' & 3mi.).

No pilot can possibly fly an ILS approach as well as a good autopilot. So when safety is of the highest of priority and the weather is less than VFR, it should be the auto flight system until the runway is in sight.

Machoism has been identified by the FAA as a hazardous attitude. The antidote for this condition is to come to the realization that taking chances is foolish, in other words, grow up a little more.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

You are taking a chance any time you get in an airplane. It's all about risk management. You are much safer calling in sick that going to work.

I didn't think I would see the day where another pilot, especially one with as much experience as yourself, would see a hand flown ILS as macho.

Once again I will state for the record that I never said that I was a super pilot, better than everyone else. I never said I flew raw data to mins either.

I'm still waiting for others to weigh in on how they fly ILS's.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Carl,

Your exact words could have been mine 20-years ago..

Now it is most important to master the autoflight system to relieve workload for both the FP and the NFP. Autoflight is especially important to prevent altitude busts. Pilot stick and rudder skills are important too, but everything I learned in terms of scan and mastered in the 727 is no longer of much importance in the automated airplanes. Now days, most pilots I know hand fly to FL180 or so, and then they turn off the autopilot the when the runway is in sight. This seems to work best.

Undaunted Flyer

 

[A Squared]

AP takes HDG, INS/GPS or VHF NAV, so you could using the AP. Just tell it what to do and sit back and watch. If you program the PMS the airplane will also do vertical nav.

Maybe I wasn't very clear. You don't have any meaningful coordinates for the runway end. It's a dirt strip on the side of a mountain. When you're down *in* a valley, 80 nm from the nearest VOR, you don't have VHF NAV. The GPS/INS can give you all kinds neato informatin, about where *you* are, but if your INS doesn't know where the end of runway is, your position is relatively meaningless. Oh, and the approach is around a hill and down a valley, otherwise you're too high to descend to the runway.

I'm curious how you plan to program a an autopilot to take you right to the end of the runway when you don't know exactly where the runway is, and by the same token you don't know exactly where you are relative to the end of the runway.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Maybe I wasn't very clear. You don't have any meaningful coordinates for the runway end. It's a dirt strip on the side of a mountain. When you're down *in* a valley, 80 nm from the nearest VOR, you don't have VHF NAV. The GPS/INS can give you all kinds neato informatin, about where *you* are, but if your INS doesn't know where the end of runway is, your position is relatively meaningless. Oh, and the approach is around a hill and down a valley, otherwise you're too high to descend to the runway.

I'm curious how you plan to program a an autopilot to take you right to the end of the runway when you don't know exactly where the runway is, and by the same token you don't know exactly where you are relative to the end of the runway.

A Squared - You and your 6 are a special exception to everything about autopilots and autoflight. Keep up the tradition of flying.

 

[kevdog]

Maybe I wasn't very clear. You don't have any meaningful coordinates for the runway end. It's a dirt strip on the side of a mountain. When you're down *in* a valley, 80 nm from the nearest VOR, you don't have VHF NAV. The GPS/INS can give you all kinds neato informatin, about where *you* are, but if your INS doesn't know where the end of runway is, your position is relatively meaningless. Oh, and the approach is around a hill and down a valley, otherwise you're too high to descend to the runway.

I'm curious how you plan to program a an autopilot to take you right to the end of the runway when you don't know exactly where the runway is, and by the same token you don't know exactly where you are relative to the end of the runway.

The same way you find the airport via hand flying it. If you don't know where the airport is, how do you find it hand flying it? You are confusing me, AP can either be controlled by heading, speed, vertical speed, or other nav means. If you can handfly the airplane to the airport, you can use the AP as well.

 

[MDAutry]

for some reason my FD never works...

 

[VNugget]

The same way you find the airport via hand flying it. If you don't know where the airport is, how do you find it hand flying it? You are confusing me, AP can either be controlled by heading, speed, vertical speed, or other nav means. If you can handfly the airplane to the airport, you can use the AP as well.

So I'm trying to picture what you're saying in the context of him snaking his way down a valley, and the best I can come up with is him twisting the heading and altitude knobs around and flying the airplane like an etch-a-sketch.

What am I missing?

Gawrsh, sorry but unless I somehow expend my tiny quota of smartassery every once in a while, I will burst

 

[kevdog]

So I'm trying to picture what you're saying in the context of him snaking his way down a valley, and the best I can come up with is him twisting the heading and altitude knobs around and flying the airplane like an etch-a-sketch.

What am I missing?

Gawrsh, sorry but unless I somehow expend my tiny quota of smartassery every once in a while, I will burst

yep, yough gawt it. if you can't operate an etch-a-sketch, you shouldn't be operating an airplane.