I'll take the freight pilot

[quigs]

You know this is so funny. I was flying freight one afternoon in the midwest in an Aztec. A line of storms started to develop, well actually only a few scattered cells. Im on the ramp loading my cargo and notice a whole fleet of military beechjets on the tarmac. I go in to check radar one last time and lo and behold I hear the pilots talking. They are going to divert to an airport that is like three states away? Im telling you, military pilots are good at what they do, but they are their own breed. You can't possibly tell me that a military pilot who has not flown "single pilot hard core IFR in crappy equipped twins", can out fly a freight dog. I would put the money on a sim ride, "freight pilot vs military pilot"
Freight pilot would come out ahead. There are no ejection seat in cargo, you goof, you die!!!

 

[quigs]

oops, supposed to have posted at the thread "trouble at AMR" sorry...

 

[T1bubba]

If there was a whole fleet of military beechjets, then it was probably the student's team ride (the equivalent of a solo but with two students). The fields they go to have to be VFR, low x-winds, and a whole list of other restrictions. And no, they wouldn't go looking for holes in a line of thunderstorms. When they do the team rides in the T-1 the students normally have about 150 hours.

Anyway, don't judge the military's weather flying capabilities by the way the training command flies. Real missions and practice are two very different things. And our cargo aircraft don't have ejection seats either...

 

[ExAF]

You know this is so funny. I was flying freight one afternoon in the midwest in an Aztec. A line of storms started to develop, well actually only a few scattered cells. Im on the ramp loading my cargo and notice a whole fleet of military beechjets on the tarmac. I go in to check radar one last time and lo and behold I hear the pilots talking. They are going to divert to an airport that is like three states away? Im telling you, military pilots are good at what they do, but they are their own breed. You can't possibly tell me that a military pilot who has not flown "single pilot hard core IFR in crappy equipped twins", can out fly a freight dog. I would put the money on a sim ride, "freight pilot vs military pilot"
Freight pilot would come out ahead. There are no ejection seat in cargo, you goof, you die!!!

Quigs...If they were mil "Beech Jets," they were trainers (T-1s) and the instructors were probably deciding where they could best go to accomplish the syllabus requirements for their students. It is not uncommon for the T-1 to go coast to coast on a cross-country flight so "three states away" is only a hop skip and a jump for them. The AF is very picky when it come to flying in the vicinity of TStorms, especially when it can easily be avoided. If you aren't airborne, it is not a divert. Smart people change destinations on the ground based on wx quite frequently, especially in the training business. I'm sure they had a very good reason for doing what they were doing, even if it was only that the food was better at the new location. If you were that amazed at their conversation, you should have talked to them...you might have learned something. I'm not going to bite on the old "mil vs civ" argument, that horse died not long after WWI. But in case you haven't noticed...those T-1s (Beech Jets) didn't have an ejection seat either. Have a Happy New Year!

 

[roman]

you really ought not speak about what you don't understand

 

[LEROY]

I remember learning during training a long time ago that a large majority of mishaps which can be attributed to pilot error occur to pilots with between 1200 and 2000 hours of flight experience. This was because the pilots felt that they had learned all they needed to learn about aviation (and weather) and developed a sense of over-confidence which affected their better judgement.

There's something to be learned from the (Air Force) pilots discussing the weather in base ops. Perhaps they all had enough experience to use superior judgement, so that they wouldn't have to use superior piloting skills.

(Sorry, I borrowed that last line from a famous old aviator)

 

[USNFDX]

Quigs,

With some 1700 hours you probably have a lot to learn...I myself have flown a little part 135 cargo stuff, and know that it can be extremly demanding and dangerous.

A few Quotes for you to think about:

"There are no Bold Old Aviators...."

"A Good decision is always better than a great save....."

"Just when you think you know it all.....YOUR DEAD!"

Many young cargo guys have learned this the hard way, and their mishaps often don't even make page 6.

I step off my soap box....Forgive me!

 

[cgflyer]

quigs,

I've flown in a cat 3 hurricane at 200 ft above the water to save lives and landed my 130k lbs Herc in a snow storm on a sheet of ice with 55kt quartering cross winds on the island of Attu Alaska, 2000 miles away from the nearest alternate, once again to save lives. But just like any prudent pilot, I'd avoid flying anywhere near a thunderstorm, especially for training or cargo.

Those military pilots you're so quick to criticize will soon be flying with and without ejections seats, avoiding bombs and bullets and enduring family separation and sleeping on the ground so you can build your hours safely and sleep in your own warm bed.

I can't believe that anyone would speak ill of our warriors out on the pointy end of the spear during peacetime or war. God bless them and protect them all as they provide the shield between us and the evil of this world.

 

[UPS Capt]

Folks, I wouldn't get too worked up over the original poster's remarks.

Those of us that have "been there, done that" eventually come to discover that no one sector of aviation has a monopoly on good and/or bad pilots. I want to fly with a good pilot and I personally don't care what his/her background is as long as they can get the job done and does it safely.

I'm sure the AF folks had valid reasons to flight plan the way they did and it was probably dictated by procedures and protocol unlike that of the civilian world.

 

[Yahtzee]

I'll take better weather with a bad stud

Quigs,

Not trying to pick sides or say anyone is better than anyone else. As a Columbus AFB (CBM) T-1 IP, I'll offer my .02. ExAF gave an excellent response IHMO. Thanks for the support!

The planes you saw on the ramp were USAF T-1s. I'm not trying to disrespect T1Bubba, but I doubt those pilots were T-1 students on team rides. First, the team rides were abolished in the spring of 2001. Second, if the forecast had T-Storms on the radar, the team sorties would never be flown..at least not at Columbus. It could have been a group of T-1s on a weekend cross country, playing follow the leader. It often happens to our squadron, if the weather is bad in all directions except for the one hole that lets us launch. Ie, Six T-1s land at Fort Smith, AR on their way to Texas due to storms in the east, and south.

The folks at many of the FBOs around the South are use to seeing a ramp full of T-1s. It's not uncommon to have six or more CBM T-1s on the same ramp at a FBO. Just ask the folks at Monroe, LA or Mobile AL.

CBM and it's training environment has weather and we fly in it. It's what we do...day in day out! We don't fly through thunderstorms, but they are part of our lives. We fly simulated Air Refueling and Air Drop Missions (500 ft low levels) around cells in formation, without ejection seats, and we can't go into IMC in formation. Couple those thoughts with weather and some of the cranky Memphis Center controllers, and it makes for some challenging flights. (Most Mem controllers are great, but a few are just a bit grouchy.)

You can't possibly tell me that a military pilot who has not flown "single pilot hard core IFR in crappy equipped twins", can out fly a freight dog.

One of the differences between the freight dog and the T-1 IP is bad weather is simple: the T-1 IP often has a 180 lb boat anchor in the left seat, i.e. a low time student making the situation worse. BE-40s weren't certified single pilot operation by the FAA, but they are often "Flown" single pilot by the T-1 IP. Flying with a weak student in bad weather is far more challenging than any malfunction I've ever had with a good student in any weather. Having an emergency with a really bad student in bad weather...no thank you. But, that's why it helps to stay in the books. I prefer to use enough judgment to never be in bad weather with a bad student.

My T-1 missions will be coming to a close soon. It's been a great learning experience and a really good time. I've meet some great folks along the way...at military bases, FBOs, airshows, and around the towns. Thanks for the memories and the help!

Yahtz

P.S. FYI Chattanooga, TN (KCHA) is two states away from Columbus AFB, MS (KCBM). Via GQO V54 RQZ DCU MSL177/33 HAB CBM at 14K it takes me about 45 minutes....dang those T-38s and the Echo MOA hence the MSL radials instead of direct. Wait a minute, 38s don't fly in bad weather, so the Echo MOA isn't active. "Mem Ctr: "Moon xx you cleared direct CBM deviations left and right approved."