IFR question

[MetroSheriff]

No worries...I think were on the same page.

 

[avbug]

Just to set the record straight, I'm not agitated. It's just that my shorts keep riding up...

 

[MetroSheriff]

I think it's referred to as "gettin' a little 'bunchy'" lol.

 

[V-1]

As CVSfly wrote, "landing minimums", not "approach minimums" are controlling. What are the minimum requirements for landing from an instrument approach?

Landing minimums are addressed in 91.175 (d):

Landing: No pilot operating an aircraft, except a militart aircraft of the United States, may land that aircraft when the flight visibility is less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used.

Furthermore, 121.651 (b) spells it out even more clearly:

Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no pilot may continue an approach past the final approach fix, or where a final approach fix is not used, begin the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure -

(2) At airports within the United States and its territories or at U.S. military airports, unless the latest weather report for that airport issued by the U.S. National Weather service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, reports the visibility minimums prescribed by that procedure...

(c) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section and after that receives a later weather report indicating below-minimum conditions, the pilot may continue the approach to DH or MDA. Upon reaching DH or at MDA, and at any time before the missed approach point, the pilot may continue the approach below DH or MDA and touch down if -

(Paraphrased) The aircraft is continuously in a position to land in the touchdown zone using normal descent rates and maneuvers and the flight visibility is no less than the visibility prescribed for the approach.

From my freight experience, the ceiling is much less important than the visibility, particularly when shooting ILS approaches with sequenced flashing lights. I can't count the number of times I've gotten in easily with the weather 100&10, 100&3, 100& 1, etc. Remember, all you have to see at DH is those powerful strobe lights, then you can descend to 100 feet above TDZE. Looking down through a 100-200 foot thick cloud is much easier than looking through 1/4 mile-visibility fog that stretches for miles.

There is confusion at the FAA level though. I once did a 135 oral with the GRR FSDO. After completing it, I asked the Examiner this same question. He said he'd issue a violation immediately for flying an approach with ceiling below (approach) minimums. After he left, I went and found our P.O.I. at the FSDO and asked him the same question. He said the other examiner was wrong.

Hope this helps.

 

[MetroSheriff]

There is confusion at the FAA level though.

A truism. Out of context, I know, but a truism all the same...

 

[canadflyau]

Good post V-1

That is exactly what I was wanting to read, the 121 reg regarding this issue. THANK YOU!! I think there is inconsistency at the FAA level which has formed some grey area that is totally black and white in the regs. A message I recieved stated that if I posted the same question about 135 that would be a different question.. for whatever reason.

I think some of these FSDO's are confusing things.. seeing that I have a nother question which I have received two totally different responses from the FSDO.

HOW DO YOU LOG FLIGHT TRAINING PERFORMED IN A LEVEL D SIM?

Some say total time yes, some say total time no.... I thought this was one of the reasons these sims were certified differently... the type of training and how it can be counted... Somemore feedback please!!!!

 

[flx757]

Total time?? No, never.

I fly/train/check for a 121 carrier, so my point of view is from a 121 background...Everything is explained in detail in Appendix H to Part 121, but here are highlights--

Training and Checking Permitted
Level B--
1) Recency of experience (121.441)
2) Night takeoffs and landings (Part 121, Appendix E)
3) Landings in a proficiency check without the landing on the line requirements (121.441)

Level C--
1) For all pilots, transition training between airplanes in the same group, and for a pilot in command, the certification check required by 61.153(g)
2) Upgrade to PIC training and the certification check when the pilot:
--Has previously qualified as SIC in the same equipment
--Has at least 500 hours while serving as SIC in an airplane in this same group
--and, Is currently serving as SIC in an airplane in this same group
3) Initial PIC training and the certification check when the pilot:
--Is currently serving as SIC in an airplane of the same group
--Has a minimum of 2500 hours as SIC in an airplane of the same group
--and, Has served as SIC on at least 2 airplanes of the same group
4) For all SIC pilot applicants who meet the experience requirements of 61.159, the initial and upgrade training and checking required by this part and the certification check required by 61.153

Level D--
All pilot flight training and checking required by this part and the certification check required by 61.153(g). The line check required by 121.440 and the OE required by 121.434 must still be performed in the airplane.

If anyone is interested (or cares), Appendix H goes into detail about what the simulator and visual requirements are for Level B, C, and D sims.

 

[hyper]

Confusion.....FAA........isn't that an oxymoron......kinda like "free gift"?

 

[Timebuilder]

Mr. Byrne wrote:

Again, the pilot must know the reported ceiling and visibility before deciding whether that approach segment can legally be initiated.

I think they are leaving behind a tiger trap for the pilot who has an accident while shooting an instrument approach.

Knowing and having the minimums are two separate ideas, aren't they? The FAA assistant CC conveniently skirts the question of how the pilot can legally make this decision under the regs.

Typical....

 

[hyper]

Amen brother

 

[canadflyau]

lets correct my logbook

After completing traing in the Level D Sim, what columns should the times be counted in? Lord knows if they can't give you the same two answers about logging the time as total or not, they are probably wrong about the other coulmns as well... I did the training at 121, and want to know how the 121 interviewers want to see it logged.
THANKS!

 

[flx757]

It's YOUR logbook. Log it however you want to log it. However, MY OPINION is that it is not total time. That is for FLIGHT time, and if you are in the sim, it is not flight time. I personally keep a separate record for my sim time, both when I'm flying and instructing. While I'm flying the sim, I log it as "simulator" time. Not that complicated.

 

[SSDD]

Only in the Simulator column. Sim time is NEVER flight time, regardles of how suffisticated(sic) the sim might be.

 

[canadflyau]

Do you break down the sim time as multi, turbine, etc...?

Unlike a PCATD where you are to log it as PCATD time and break it down only in the remarks section. A Sim and PCATD are not the same.. no checkrides, upgrades, etc. can be performed in a PCATD (because I am told that you do log Level D sim time in the appropriate columns.. otherwise a sim would just be the same as a $3000 Elite PCATD)

Thanks!

 

[SSDD]

Look up FAR's Part 1, definitions, and look up flight time. No matter how suffisticated, a simulator (even a level D) will not fly.

Take care