IFR for the VFR guys

[minitour]

This argument came up a while ago at an airport I was flying to for my solo XCs and I never really paid attention until now when I'm actually doing the instrument rating. Hopefully you guys can shine some light on what I'm looking at here. The discussion was as follows:

A student and an instructor are doing IRF hoodwork in VFR conditions. They did not file a IFR flight plan, nor have they received any clearance. So they must maintain their required cloud clearances and flight visibilities during their flight.

Well, on the way back they decide they want to shoot the ILS to runway X (we'll use 2 in this case). So they call approach and ask for and get vectors. Well you know how it goes, this heading, that altitude, blah blah...well finally they get the "Five from the marker turn right 350 maintain 3,000 til established tower 119.4 cleared ils 2 approach"

So they turn, descend, intercept the localizer, and just before glideslope interception they pop right through a cloud.

The argument was:
Guy A (I think a CFI) was saying totally illegal because they aren't on an IFR flight plan and the approach clearance doesn't count as an IFR clearance.

Guy B (I think a CFI also) was saying totally legal because the approach clearance DOES count unless the approach controller says "maintain VFR conditions".

I tend to agree with guy A. I just think if the feds showed up at the scene of the crash, they'd want to know what I was doing VFR in a cloud....what do you think?

Thanks

-mini

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Guy A is correct.

 

[minitour]

Guy A is correct.

Thanks...thats what I thought

-mini

 

[Vector4fun]

mini,

The situation you describe is common, and I'll tell you my thoughts. To me, (and I consider myself "old-school" ATC), an IFR clearance contains 3 important things:

Clearance Limit

Route

Altitude

In the interest of brevity, or a little sloppiness or forgetfulness, a lot of controllers leave off "Maintain VFR" with the practice approach clearance. I'm even sure I've done it myself when really busy. But If a pilot actually asked me for a local IFR clearance to fly the approach, and I did things properly, the following would take place:

I'd probably change your beacon code to an "IFR" code that provides MSAW (Minimum Safe Altitude Warning) Codes from our local VFR code bank suppress MSAW alerts.

I'd issue a clearance similar to: "Cleared to XYZ airport via radar vectors and the ILS runway 2, maintain X thousand feet." There's your three basic requirements for an IFR clearance.

See FAA 7110.65 para 4-2-8:

4-2-8. IFR-VFR AND VFR-IFR FLIGHTS​

a. Clear an aircraft planning IFR operations for the initial part of flight and VFR for the latter part to the fix at which the IFR part ends.

b. Treat an aircraft planning VFR for the initial part of flight and IFR for the latter part as a VFR departure. Issue a clearance to this aircraft when it requests IFR clearance approaching the fix where it proposes to start IFR operations. The phraseology CLEARED TO (destination) AIRPORT AS FILED may be used with abbreviated departure clearance procedures. ​

[size=-2]REFERENCE-​

FAAO 7110.65, Abbreviated Departure Clearance, Para 4-3-3.[/size]

c. When an aircraft changes from VFR to IFR, the controller shall assign a beacon code to Mode-C equipped aircraft that will allow MSAW alarms. ​

​

*I* personally wouldn't violate VFR clearance from cloud regs unless I made plain to the controller I was requesting a local IFR clearance. Also be advised that you may not receive IFR separation from other aircraft unless you specifically request a local IFR clearance. I'm only required to provide 500' vertical separation between a practice VFR approach, and another IFR aircraft.


If you want approved IFR separation from other aircraft, and backup terrain warning via MSAW, always make plain to the controller you are requesting a local IFR clearance. Something to think about....

 

[minitour]

Vector4fun

Thanks for the info there! I just couldn't imagine unless I requested an IFR clearance busting the VFR cloud/vis requirements, etc. But still, this guy was just adamant that once you're cleared for the approach its an IFR clearance...

I guess the first guy could have simply argued that a Visual approach doesn't cancel the IFR flight plan (...it doesn't...right?) so its not a VFR clearance although you've gotta have that cieling/vis mins...

Anyway...thanks for clearing that up in my head guyz....I would have hated to give bad info like that to a student (in the future) or...eek actually fly an approach like that...

Thankya again

-mini

 

[philo beddoe]

Guy B wouldn't last long as a DO or chief pilot.

Interpreting the controller's omission of the Remain VFR advisory as a default IFR clearance is a huuuge stretch.

Shows a very large gap in FAR knowledge.

 

[A Squared]

Guy B wouldn't last long as a DO or chief pilot.

Interpreting the controller's omission of the Remain VFR advisory as a default IFR clearance is a huuuge stretch.

Shows a very large gap in FAR knowledge.

DOs and CHief pilots are capable of HUUUUUGE stretches.

some of the better one's I've seen:

Standby is not duty (part 121)

Annual recurrent training isn't duty (part 121)

You may descend to the minimum safe altitude shown on the approach plate in routine (non-emergency) operations.

That's just off the top of my head

 

[mar]

The beer test

DOs and CHief pilots are capable of HUUUUUGE stretches.

some of the better one's I've seen:

Standby is not duty (part 121)

Annual recurrent training isn't duty (part 121)

I always like to apply the beer test.

For example: Standby is not duty? Then I can have a beer, right?

You say no? Then I say I'm on duty.

Simple. But then a lot of things are simple in my head.

 

[minitour]

I always like to apply the beer test.

For example: Standby is not duty? Then I can have a beer, right?

You say no? Then I say I'm on duty.

Simple. But then a lot of things are simple in my head.

I've got to remember that!

 

[Singlecoil]

You may descend to the minimum safe altitude shown on the approach plate in routine (non-emergency) operations.

I hope you're kidding, but I'm afraid you're not.