IFR equipment question

[bobbysamd]

More TAB Express ground school "knowledge"

a very good question!
indeed you are legal to fly. as long as you have another form of time peace with a sweaping second hand.

just my 2 cents

Your two cents, "Mav," aren't worth a quarter. (Apologies for mixing metaphors.)

The clock, with the "sweaping" second hand, must be installed in and be a part of the aircraft, according to 14 CFR 91.205(a) and (d)(6):

Sec. 91.205 - Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.

* * * *

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.

(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.

(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:

(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in §121.305(j) of this chapter; and

(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of ±80 degrees of pitch and ±120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with §29.1303(g) of this chapter.

(4) Slip-skid indicator.

(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.

(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.

(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.

(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).

(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).

(emphasis added)

In other words, it's like trying to substitute your wristwatch for the panel clock. You cannot do it per the regs.

You know something, "Mav," you embarass TAB and do it a grave disservice every time you post. Not only do you not know what you're talking about, ewe dont even no how to spel write.

Apologies for any redundant information.

I like IP076's signature.

 

[pilotman2105]

Hey, you wrote that exactly as the reg....read it....displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer OR digital presentation....Digital is fine.

I do have a tendency to read what I write. Tends to work better that way.

My confusion was in whether or not the "or" was allowing for a choice between an analog or digital clock, OR if it was allowing for a choice between a sweep second hand or a digital clock.

 

[pilotman2105]

Re: More TAB Express ground school "knowledge"

(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.

* * * *

That's what I was looking for. I over looked that everytime I re-read the reg.

Thanks bobbysamd...

 

[bobbysamd]

That's what I was looking for. I over looked that everytime I re-read the reg.

Thanks bobbysamd...

You're entirely welcome, my friend.

 

[plunger]

Bobby- mav has to be about suicidal by now. i haven't laughed all day. thanks again

 

[bobbysamd]

TAB P-F-T aside - sorry

Bobby- mav has to be about suicidal by now. i haven't laughed all day. thanks again

You're welcome. He does the pro-P-F-T cause a disservice with his lack of credibility. Especially in this case about about a fairly basic instrument ground school issue.

 

[standaman]

Interesting to see that this particular question pops up quite a bit in flight training. I look at this issue and don't seem to see what is so hard about this particular question. I have had this same quesiton among flights students time and time again at my own flight school. The regulations always tell the story.

 

[CDVdriver]

91.213 (d) (ii)
As far as I know, SE piston does not need an MEL.
91.205(a) ..........." contains the instruments.."
Does not state anywhere they have to be permanently mounted in the airplane.

The wrist compass does not fly (literally) because it has not been properly set up in the airplane incl deviation card.
Every time you move your hand the dev. would be different.
A wrist worn clock does not suffer from these errors, therefore (imo) a wristwatch meets the IFR requirements of
91.205(d)(6)

 

[Junior Birdman]

I don't know whether I'm trying to read too much into this but...does it need to be strictly a panel mounted, stand-alone "clock"- per 91.205, or can it be a "clock" that happens to reside within another installed instrument- ie: panel mount GPS?

The more I think about it, it seems to me that if I were an "FAA Type" answering this- the answer would be that it must be a separate "stand-alone" clock -unless- the clock function is displayed at all times (on the gps or other permanently panel- mounted device) and operates separately and independently of the other device.

...This is bad- I'm starting to think like an "FAA Type"...

I'm turning off this machine and going out to get some fresh air!

 

[huncowboy]

I also tend to think that the clock must be part of the airplane.

However, if the clock needs to be wired to the airplane, than the next question is: Can we even USE those clocks that you can buy in sporty's while flying under IFR and flying an actual approach? It would make sense to say: Nope. But than why are they selling them? For training only?

I don't know but it really seems to make no sense to say: Ummmmm.... Sooooo if you have a clock in the equipment list, then you can use a clock that you bought for $20... but if you don't than you can't.

So what do the FAR gurus think?

 

[flyifrvfr]

I would just like to add my .02 in regarding TOMATOFLAMES. This acronymn is to be used first to determine if you are legal for day VFR. If any of the TOMATOFLAMES is inop, you can't fly the plane. If you comply with the acronymn and nothing else is inop, you may fly. If you come across an item that is not in the TOMATOFLAMES acronymn, you must then refer to the equipment list in the POH/AFM to determine if it is a required item or not. I know others have said they don't like the acronymn but as a CFI I will teach it as I explained above. I did not mention ferry permits on purpose.

 

[pilotman2105]

I would just like to add my .02 in regarding TOMATOFLAMES. This acronymn is to be used first to determine if you are legal for day VFR. If any of the TOMATOFLAMES is inop, you can't fly the plane. If you comply with the acronymn and nothing else is inop, you may fly. If you come across an item that is not in the TOMATOFLAMES acronymn, you must then refer to the equipment list in the POH/AFM to determine if it is a required item or not. I know others have said they don't like the acronymn but as a CFI I will teach it as I explained above. I did not mention ferry permits on purpose.

Not trying to rain on your parade, but here's an example:

Rotating beacon inop on a C182. Not required by TOMATOFLAMES and listed in the equipment list as "optional." However, 91.209(b) requires that if it is installed, that it be "lighted" unless determined otherwise for safety reasons.

TOMATOFLAMES seems to be a good start, but it certainly doesn't go the whole way. Neither does the just addition of the equipment list.

Guess you just have to have a good knowledge of the regs as a student?

 

[flyifrvfr]

I don't have a FAR/AIM in front of me but I believe that a rotating becon is considered an anti-colision light. If the rotating becon is inop, you can use the wingtip strobes, if you have them, as the antic-colision light. Remember that I said that TOMATOFLAMES is a start, but not the extent of whether or not an aircraft is airworthy.
You have to go further then that.

 

[ThunderRun]

I still think we're missing the point of the original question.

Are you legal for IFR flight if your plane has an inop clock, but you have a digital clip on clock instead?

If the clock installed in your plane is inop, you cannot fly IFR since it is required for the kind of flight operations being conducted.

But if your plane doesn't have a clock, or the clock in your plane is operable you can use any clock, timer or watch that complies with 91.205. The regulation allows for FAA approved equivalents. My experience is the FAA will allow the use of timers other than those installed in the aircraft--but if the clock in your plane is inop it had better be placarded and don't even think about filing IFR. For the record, all of my practical tests have been flown using a Sporty's timer.

 

[be76pilot]

Don't want to be to off the subject here, but all MEL's aside, its not TOMATO FLAMES that you use as an acronym for VFR required equpment, its A TOMATO FLAMES. The A is for anticollision light, which can be either a rotating beacon or strobe lights. You also have to remember the flotation device and pyrotecnic device required if operating beyond gliding distance from the shore, while carrying passengers for hire.

-my 2 cents