IFR equipment question

[bobbysamd]

TAB P-F-T aside - sorry

Bobby- mav has to be about suicidal by now. i haven't laughed all day. thanks again

You're welcome. He does the pro-P-F-T cause a disservice with his lack of credibility. Especially in this case about about a fairly basic instrument ground school issue.

 

[standaman]

Interesting to see that this particular question pops up quite a bit in flight training. I look at this issue and don't seem to see what is so hard about this particular question. I have had this same quesiton among flights students time and time again at my own flight school. The regulations always tell the story.

 

[CDVdriver]

91.213 (d) (ii)
As far as I know, SE piston does not need an MEL.
91.205(a) ..........." contains the instruments.."
Does not state anywhere they have to be permanently mounted in the airplane.

The wrist compass does not fly (literally) because it has not been properly set up in the airplane incl deviation card.
Every time you move your hand the dev. would be different.
A wrist worn clock does not suffer from these errors, therefore (imo) a wristwatch meets the IFR requirements of
91.205(d)(6)

 

[Junior Birdman]

I don't know whether I'm trying to read too much into this but...does it need to be strictly a panel mounted, stand-alone "clock"- per 91.205, or can it be a "clock" that happens to reside within another installed instrument- ie: panel mount GPS?

The more I think about it, it seems to me that if I were an "FAA Type" answering this- the answer would be that it must be a separate "stand-alone" clock -unless- the clock function is displayed at all times (on the gps or other permanently panel- mounted device) and operates separately and independently of the other device.

...This is bad- I'm starting to think like an "FAA Type"...

I'm turning off this machine and going out to get some fresh air!

 

[huncowboy]

I also tend to think that the clock must be part of the airplane.

However, if the clock needs to be wired to the airplane, than the next question is: Can we even USE those clocks that you can buy in sporty's while flying under IFR and flying an actual approach? It would make sense to say: Nope. But than why are they selling them? For training only?

I don't know but it really seems to make no sense to say: Ummmmm.... Sooooo if you have a clock in the equipment list, then you can use a clock that you bought for $20... but if you don't than you can't.

So what do the FAR gurus think?

 

[flyifrvfr]

I would just like to add my .02 in regarding TOMATOFLAMES. This acronymn is to be used first to determine if you are legal for day VFR. If any of the TOMATOFLAMES is inop, you can't fly the plane. If you comply with the acronymn and nothing else is inop, you may fly. If you come across an item that is not in the TOMATOFLAMES acronymn, you must then refer to the equipment list in the POH/AFM to determine if it is a required item or not. I know others have said they don't like the acronymn but as a CFI I will teach it as I explained above. I did not mention ferry permits on purpose.

 

[pilotman2105]

I would just like to add my .02 in regarding TOMATOFLAMES. This acronymn is to be used first to determine if you are legal for day VFR. If any of the TOMATOFLAMES is inop, you can't fly the plane. If you comply with the acronymn and nothing else is inop, you may fly. If you come across an item that is not in the TOMATOFLAMES acronymn, you must then refer to the equipment list in the POH/AFM to determine if it is a required item or not. I know others have said they don't like the acronymn but as a CFI I will teach it as I explained above. I did not mention ferry permits on purpose.

Not trying to rain on your parade, but here's an example:

Rotating beacon inop on a C182. Not required by TOMATOFLAMES and listed in the equipment list as "optional." However, 91.209(b) requires that if it is installed, that it be "lighted" unless determined otherwise for safety reasons.

TOMATOFLAMES seems to be a good start, but it certainly doesn't go the whole way. Neither does the just addition of the equipment list.

Guess you just have to have a good knowledge of the regs as a student?

 

[flyifrvfr]

I don't have a FAR/AIM in front of me but I believe that a rotating becon is considered an anti-colision light. If the rotating becon is inop, you can use the wingtip strobes, if you have them, as the antic-colision light. Remember that I said that TOMATOFLAMES is a start, but not the extent of whether or not an aircraft is airworthy.
You have to go further then that.

 

[ThunderRun]

I still think we're missing the point of the original question.

Are you legal for IFR flight if your plane has an inop clock, but you have a digital clip on clock instead?

If the clock installed in your plane is inop, you cannot fly IFR since it is required for the kind of flight operations being conducted.

But if your plane doesn't have a clock, or the clock in your plane is operable you can use any clock, timer or watch that complies with 91.205. The regulation allows for FAA approved equivalents. My experience is the FAA will allow the use of timers other than those installed in the aircraft--but if the clock in your plane is inop it had better be placarded and don't even think about filing IFR. For the record, all of my practical tests have been flown using a Sporty's timer.

 

[be76pilot]

Don't want to be to off the subject here, but all MEL's aside, its not TOMATO FLAMES that you use as an acronym for VFR required equpment, its A TOMATO FLAMES. The A is for anticollision light, which can be either a rotating beacon or strobe lights. You also have to remember the flotation device and pyrotecnic device required if operating beyond gliding distance from the shore, while carrying passengers for hire.

-my 2 cents

 

[be76pilot]

P.S. From my last msg., you also need to consider night VFR required equipment, which I learned with the following acronym:

S Spare set of fuses
L Landing light
E Electrical source
A Anti-collision light
P Position lights


All right, back to the original question........

 

[be76pilot]

Just in case anyone wants an acronym for IFR flight, its everthing that is required for VFR day and night, and the following acronym:

G Generator or Alternator
R Radios: 2-way
A An altitude reporting altimeter
B Ball (inclinometer)
C Clock:digital or sweeping second hand
A Attitude indicator
R Rate of turn indicator: Turn coordinator or turn and slip ind.
D DME: If above FL240 using VORs for navigation.
D Directional gyro: Heading indicator, ect.

 

[flyboycpa]

Don't want to be to off the subject here, but all MEL's aside, its not TOMATO FLAMES that you use as an acronym for VFR required equpment, its A TOMATO FLAMES. The A is for anticollision light, which can be either a rotating beacon or strobe lights. You also have to remember the flotation device and pyrotecnic device required if operating beyond gliding distance from the shore, while carrying passengers for hire.

-my 2 cents

So....

Are you saying that if I'm in the Cub or Champ during the day that I'm not legal to operate at all since I have no electrical system and therefore no lights? The lights are only if NIGHT VFR, not just all VFR. Just curious. I don't have the reg in front of me to quote from.

fb

 

[be76pilot]

Hey flyboy, sorry about the confusion here. The A in A TOMATO FLAMES is for anti-collision light (rotating beacon or strobe light), which is a required peice of aircraft lighting equipment during day VFR, if your plane was certificated after March 11, 1996. I forgot to mention that little catch to the anti-collision light rule for day VFR flight. I do not know much about the cub or champ, but my best guess leads me to believe that they were not certificated after March 11, 1996. Therefore, you would not need to have the anti-collision light on your proposed acft during day VFR flight. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Are you saying that if I'm in the Cub or Champ during the day that I'm not legal to operate at all since I have no electrical system and therefore no lights? The lights are only if NIGHT VFR, not just all VFR. Just curious. I don't have the reg in front of me to quote from.

Nah. The extra "A" at the beginning of the acronym was added to account for 91.209 which says that if your aircraft =has= anticollision lights, you must have them turned on, day or night. Your Cub or Champ doesn't have them, so you don't need them during the day.

Just another problem with the acronym. When the rules change, someone has to mess the acronym to fit, and even then, as your example points out, it's =still= wrong!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Hey flyboy, sorry about the confusion here. The A in A TOMATO FLAMES is for anti-collision light (rotating beacon or strobe light), which is a required piece of aircraft lighting equipment during day VFR, if your plane was certificated after March 11, 1996.

I think that's still not correct. Yes, airplanes certified after March 1996 must have anticollision lights, but the reason for adding the "A" to the mnemonic (for those who use it) is to account for the change in 91.209 requiring an airplane that has anticollision lights operate them, day or night, no matter when the airplane was certified (unless the PIC determines it would be safer to have them off)