If you had a choice.....GIII or DA 2000?

[HA25]

I'm trying to help someone decide on a plane to buy. He likes the GIII which sells for about 10M) and the DA 2000 which can be had for as low as 17M. What do you guys with experience in either type think?

Looking for range, size, and effeciency as well as lower maint costs.

 

[cvsfly]

Many questions have to be answered first. I don't have experience with either of these, but I know some basic questions have to be added here. What is the purpose of the aircraft? What is the mission profile, required range, payload? Insurance, crews, maintenance, the airports one wants to operate out of (Stage noise concerns, runway performance). What is the available equipment available on each aircraft - RVSM, 8.33 spacing, hush kits, etc?

 

[HA25]

The mission is for a private jet that can travel 3000nm+ at the lowest operating cost, that also has a large cabin. It seems like the falcons are usually better equiped, but they also cost more, so the avionics are not the issue, but rather which airplace costs less to maintaina and operate?

 

[GVFlyer]

G-III vs. F alcon 2000


The G-III is a good reliable jet, RVSM compliant, 8.33 spacing, FM Immunity; it's fast, powerful, comfortable, stable, and with it's wide-chord 77'10" wing a great high altitude performer. In the military, I flew it without event to every continent except Antartica, but you decide:

G-III..................................................2000

NC - .80 Range - 3,492.......................NC - .80 Range - 2,998
LRC -.77 Range - 3,614.......................LRC - .75 Range - 3,247

WT. - 69,700........................................Wt. - 36,500
Payload with full fuel - 2,600...............Payload with full fuel - 908

T/O Dist. - 5,110..................................T/O Dist. - 5,850
LDG Dist. - 3,180...................................LDG Dist. - 3,125

Cabin Int. - 41'4"...............................Cabin Int. - 31'2"
Ht. - 6'1".............................................Ht. - 6'2"
Wd. - 7'4".............................................Wd. - 7'8"

TBO - 8,000 hrs...................................TBO - 6,000 hrs

DOC - $2319.09...................................DOC - $1189.00

Comments:

Ten G-III's are currently used by the U.S. Military for VIP transport:
Army - 2
Air Force - 5
Coast Guard - 1
Marines - 1
Navy - 1

The G-III is used as a Head-of-State aircraft by Italy, Chile, Venezuela, Angola, Cameroun, Ivory Coast, and Morocco.

The G-III is not a Stage III aircraft and would require a noise reduction kit such as the one offered by Really Quite, LLC. to bring it within Stage III compliance for some European and Far Eastern operations.

G-III's serial number 400 and higher have a more modern AC electrical system which they share with the G-IV.

The delta in the initial acquisition costs will pay for a lot of difference in DOC (first 3,019 G-III hours free, more if you factor in initial capital outlay and the future value of money).

When you consider that the G-III is nearly twice as large as the Falcon 2000, the operating efficiencies are almost the same.

There are few limits in deciding your G-III avionics requirements. Serial number 355 was STC'd for the Honeywell Epics system last September. Epics offers nearly the same functionality as the PlaneView system that will be on the GVSP.

Gulfstream provides an extensive worldwide service support network and 24/7/365 tech support.

Most 2000 operators feel that the one-off GE/Allied Signal CFE 738-1-1B's are anemic. Falcon must agree in that they are going to PW 308C's on the 2000EX.

Both are good airplanes, but buying a Dassault doesn't put dinner on the table for many US workers, but that's just me, I won't fly on an Airbus either.

GV





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[P3-Adub]

There are still a lot of stage II GIIs and GIIIs running around this country. It will be a while longer before mandatory stage III compliance is required. Not sure of the cutoff date or what the European requirements are to date. The planes are RVSM able, I would buy one that already has the certification. I flew both the II and the III and they are wonderful planes. Plenty of performance, a rare commodity in most biz jets. Passengers really like them because you can load them up and go a long ways. The big windows are really well received. If your party is willing to spend 17M, then the additional $$$ to get an older GIV would be money well spent in my opinion. Gulfstreams are imensly reliable. The worldwide support for Gulfstreams is great. With a large fleet of planes to support and modify, upgrades like winglets for the GII and hushkits for both will keep these planes going for a long time. As far as age of aircraft, the GII that I flew was a 1968 model that had all new avionics and winglets. The engines were fresh, the paint was new and so was the interior. 6 million went a long way ! GIIs & IIIs are a bit depressed right now so there should be some screaming good deals out there. If capitol expenditure is a big concern, then the 6-7M saved covers a lot of operating costs. Gulfstream support is incredible with many service choices. I also flew Falcons, the 10, and sometimes parts were slow in availability, expensive too, great machine though.

The question needs to be asked, are there any noise sensative airports that they need to go into such as Orange County or Santa Monica ?

Good luck on your quest. Hope you get a chance to fly the plane whatever they decide !

 

[501261]

Falcon's a better airplane, but its not a fair comparison. A better question would be is a Falcon 2000 worth $7M more than a GIII? Simply to many variables to consider to make a good decision on that. Are you going to be operating in California, New York, Europe where noise is a big factor? How long is your home base runway?

Either way these are big purchases, I would certainly recommend hiring a broker to walk you through these decisions. Even as a flight department manager who has bought 4 airplanes in the last 3 years, I would not feel comforable doing this myself. I'm simply not current enough with market fluctations (9months ago GV's where $45million green, today you can buy Ford's GV for $33million) and the latest and greatest tax breaks or regulations to do this myself.

 

[2000flyer]

Falcon Biased!

Just taking your question as asked, I'd have to say go for the Falcon. This is a biased opinion mind you, I have no Gulfstream experience. Both are great aircraft, though when looking at DOCs, the Falcon will beat a G3 most any day.

While true, for $7M less, that will buy a bunch of fuel for the G3, but look at it this way, with the fuel flows on a 2000, you'll save that $7M in fuel burn! We flight plan 2200# first hour, gradually less and by the end of hour two, you'll be a FL430-450, M0.82 (approximately), burning 1480-1520 PPH TOTAL! Try that in a G3!

The others have made an excellent point on issues such as RVSM, 8.33, Stage III and such. Something for you to seriously consider.

As for 3000 miles, thats about the limit for the 2000. The longest I've done was 3300, however, that was winter-time eastbound (aka tail wind).

Gulfstream has great selling points, but dollar for dollar I think you'd be MUCH happier with a 2000.

Regards,

A biased 2000Flyer

 

[HA25]

Thanks for the comments so far guys, keep the opinions comming....I will forward this thread to him in a week or so. And yes, I will likely be flying which ever one he goes with....but I too am no experet on either model.

 

[501261]

If your looking at a GIII, why not also look at a GII, costs about half as a GIII!

Also, $10M for a GIII seems pretty high, remember what I said about market fluctations, right now there are 34 GIII's on the market.

On the other hand there are only 6 D2000 listed, making their prices more stable.

Any reason your not also looking at Challengers? They can go 3000 nm for the price of a GIII, but are cheaper to operate.

For that matter do you really need 3000 mile range? Is it overwater, or can you be pretty light on fuel when landing (i.e. day VFR, multiple runways, no delays on arrival)?

If you can be light on fuel that opens up a whole other group of aircraft that can get close to 3000sm. Westwind 2's, Lear 60's, Falcon 50's, Citation X's, Jetstar's are all in that catagory.

Of course the last thing you want to do is confuse the issue, a lot of wanna be aircraft buyers end up being confused with the wide variety of choices out there and end up buying nothing or going fractional. I certainly don't want to confuse the issue, I was just wondering why its a Falcon or GIII. They are two pretty different aircraft.

Good luck and let us know how it works out. I certainly wish you the best of luck, because there are too many people out there that talk a big game, but when it comes time to pay they shrink away.

 

[HA25]

I wonder if there aren't more DA2000 going to be on the market soon with the shutting down of all the aviation depts at Worldcom, Enron, Global Crossing, Aurther Anderson, Tyco, etc.... Surely many of them operated the DA2000. Anyway supply/demand certainly seems to favor the GIII. As for the CL-601, I think that he would be open to the idea of a 601, because he DOES NEED the large cabin. AS for the Range, I would say 3000 is minimum, as there will be Atlantic, and Hawaii trips. I will do a bit of research on the 601. I like this bird as I have some 800 hours in her big cousin the CL-65, although it was very anemic, especially in the climb, but that was probably due to the heavy weight, and only a small increase in power.

 

[501261]

I'm sure I will be wrong with this, but the companies you mentioned operate GV's, Falcon 900, and Hawkers. No Falcon 2000's, they're great airplanes just a little hard to find still.

Challenger 600 go for $6M, 601's for $10M, and 604's for $17M. The 600 only goes about 2500nm. All Challengers will out climb a CL-65, though they are enimic when compared to a GIII.

If you want cabin size, the best bang is an old Jetstar! They fly like a dream and have one of the roomiest cockpits this side of a 747, all for about $2.5M

On the other hand if all you want to do is go to Hawaii and Europe a Lear 36 can make Hawaii and even a lowly Citation I can make Europe (albiet with stops in Gander, Greenland, and Keflavic.)

 

[banned username 2]

Actually Tyco has (had) two Falcon 2000's...

 

[HA25]

Challenger 600 go for $6M, 601's for $10M, and 604's for $17M. The 600 only goes about 2500nm. All Challengers will out climb a CL-65, though they are enimic when compared to a GIII.

The 601-3R's I'm pricing are in the 15M range, I'd love to get into a 604 though.

We'll see....

 

[2000flyer]

Add to the flight department closings: Aetna (Falcon 2000), Seacor (sp?...also a 2000). I had heard Dassault had six used 2000s on the market.

 

[mach none]

Falcon

 

[TAG2]

G-III

I have no Falcon experience. A great airplane, I'm sure.

The Gulfstream is a very reliable airplane. You would have no regrets. Noise is an issue and getting worse. As far as G-II, Europe and Hawaii can be done. A G-IIsp with winglets has an increase of 7% in performance making Hawaii from SJC no problem most of the time. The UK can be done from Gander most of the time and Shannon to Gander most of the time. It is a no brainer in the G-III. My vote is Gulfstream.

 

[HA25]

Thanks for all of the thoughtful input fellas.....we'l' forward this thread onto the potential buyer and see what he says.

 

[Capt. Over]

Falcon for me....

Simply put....Dassault is leaps and bounds ahead of it's time as far as design and technology levels go. Gulfstream just keeps making it's planes bigger using the same basic airframe. Granted the fancy EFIS is in the newer aircraft, the rest of the airplane was designed in the 70's. Many mechanics I have spoken with don't like working and maintaining Gulfstreams because of the "old school military technology" they use. Falcons are state of the art aircraft....not only in the cockpit, but inside the fuselage as well. They are a dream to fly and probably one of, if not the best biz-jet in the sky. My $.02....having flown several Falcons and talked to many Gulfstream operators. By the way....need a pilot?

 

[HA25]

This is very prelim, and I think we are close to a year away from a purchase, as the funds will arrive about then (can't get into details). However, when the time comes to staff it we'll be looking here first.