If i was an owner

[JPB]

There is one thing that would be required from the crew and that is a maximum of 10 hours duty by the end of the trip.
Most guys are on the road 6 to 7 days at a time with a rest requirement of 10 hours/day and no schedule (that's the hard part). That means that you have to eat, sleep, shower and drive back to the airport in 10 hours...no time for exercise or sight seeing.
It is not unusual to have several 14 hour days back to back. NO ONE can fly safely in those conditions. In my 18 months as a frac. pilot, i have seen only 1 capt. having the courage to raise is voice and turn down a trip...Of course no action was taken against him but the safety call should be made by someone not too tired to make a judgment decision.
I have a new family and i decided to take my career somewhere else. I even had to pay the company back almost 10K to get out. Good thing i was making the big $36K/year with capt pay.
Next time you fly in the evening, just ask the crew if they have been on duty all day...some owners do.
And please do it nicely: Those guys are the nicest, most dedicated pilots in the universe.
But remember that fatigue is the primary reason of aviation accidents.
Last thing: It seems that most guys don't mind getting a tip. I have seen limo drivers making more money on a tip that i was making all day...It's nice to take your family to dinner when you see them.
Be nice, safe and keep the airplane clean.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

36K as a Captain? thats pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** sad....

the pay should change, but unfortunatly you knew the pay when you said "Yes" to the job offer....as did eveyone else there....so I would say the chance of a pay raise is slim to none...

Persue other corporate type jobs! they pay much better and many have a far better quality of life!

 

[NJA Capt]

In my 18 months as a frac. pilot, i have seen only 1 capt. having the courage to raise is voice and turn down a trip...

Your voice counts just as much as his. If you were tired, you could have spoken up too. Sorry you thought you had to leave. Although not a very good market to be doing so. Especially to pay your way out.

G200,
I bet there are plenty of furloughed guys that $36k would look good to, eh?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I dont think there are too many furloughed corporate guys who would even THINK about taking a full time job for 36K...
airlines...maybe...
do you guys hire them?

any corporate guy out of work can do contract work for 500-1000$ a day...I dont know a single person qualified as a PIC on a bizjet who would work for 36K a year....sad. heck, unemployment pays 440/week near me...

humm...3000/month to work full time...taxes,benefits,401k.....means take home what...600/week??? no thanks....sittin on the couch is better at 440!!
Thats Sad

I do however, have no doubt that his fractional will have no problem hiring and training another guy...heck, at 36K a year they can afford to right?

 

[JPB]

$550/week is the 1st/2nd year capt take home...

 

[swberry]

any corporate guy out of work can do contract work for 500-1000$ a day...I dont know a single person qualified as a PIC on a bizjet who would work for 36K a year....sad. heck, unemployment pays 440/week near me...

You paint a pretty rosy picture. I am sure a contract guy is just covered up with work huh??? What about recurrent training in those jets that Mr. big money contract dude pays for. Many companies insurance require Mr. big money contract dude to be qualified by an approved training facility. I wonder if that costs money???

I came from the corporate world flying for one of the largest companies in the world and you can have it. I learned enough in those two years to know that I will never do that again. But, some people are just good butt kissers..... Enjoy

 

[FL450]

Pay him no attention. G200 just enjoys making dorky comments about others misfortunes. Pretty sad.

 

[swberry]

Pay him no attention. G200 just enjoys making dorky comments about others misfortunes. Pretty sad.

I can see that. That's okay, I have a trust fund that I am sure already makes his puny little corporate retirement look like some kind of worthless second rate hand me down from a long lost relative....

 

[NJAowner]

"Last thing: It seems that most guys don't mind getting a tip."

Did a frax pilot really say that? I have never even thought of tipping a pilot. It seems to me that the pilot is a professional and we (American society) generally don't tip professionals. I don't know anyone who tips their doctor, accountant, lawyers. Some professionals would even see a tip as an insult.

 

[Airpiraterob]

theres professional waiters...
professional bartenders....
professional CAB drivers...

all these hard workers get tips.
those guys up front work hard....how are they different? the pilots are professionals at what they do...so are the other 3 professionals i listed.

some of these pilots work hours very similar to some freight pilots out there. and the appreciation for them sometimes dosent reach their ears. theres many of these corporate pilots that would love a tip. (a few i know) It really makes the 7+ day trip worthwhile in the end. i was absolutely fortunate enough to recieve a tip from a STUDENT at one time. i thought...'holy cow, from a student?' and then thought 'what the heck'...and bought a nice replacement lightweight self-standing golf bag for my beat up old clubs (and a nice putter). i still get a good feeling every time i use it cause i know my hard work got me that. and i feel for the better afterwards for a good while. especially after being on the road as many days as they are (specially after their wife just gave birth!) sometimes they need something nice. the tip made me feel that i was indeed doing good solid work and i was appreciated for my efforts.

if youre working in a large pilot group (frax type) the company dosent give everyone 'atta-boys' too much as theres too many of them to give out. so they do it in the impersonal letter to the pilots. hows that help?

a great job makes life good and happy. sometimes after a few years, that good job can wear on you if its a tough one and the end result isnt too good lookin. somethin like a nice tip in the end once in a while can really pick someone up. it dosent always have to be money....

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Gee sorry, didnt think I was poking fun of anyones misfortunes...
just said that not too many experienced corp guys would work for 550/week....myself included..

How is that poking fun of anyone?

you say...

I can see that. That's okay, I have a trust fund that I am sure already makes his puny little corporate retirement look like some kind of worthless second rate hand me down from a long lost relative....

OK....

I have also helped at least one guy on this board find a job! When I left the L.A. area I personally refered him to a job on a mid-size bizjet. He was the first and only one they looked at. Went from unemployed to 95K/yr, good benefits, and 15K in relocation reimbursement. He had PM'd me a few times looking for work and I was glad to help when I could by knowing of an unadvertised opening that was going to happen when I left! I also respond back to any PM I can about companies, jobs...and if I cant help I refer to others who can!

But...what I am also for is just compensation in my field! I have no tolerance for a guy who takes a job as a Captain on a bizjet for 36K/yr then tuns around 12 months later and whines how terrible the pay is!! You knew the pay going in right? I dont think guys should take jobs like that, I affects ALL of our pay somewhat...and I want to make more money. We all deserve it with the level of responsibility we have. Whats the solution? I have no idea. Maybe if nobody took the low paying jobs they would pay more??? maybe strike for more pay?? I have heard some frax guys talk about that! I think its a fair idea, yet I doubt any of them will do it...

I think we should all use this forum to raise the bar in our profession, expose shiity jobs when they creep up (DA20 job in IL that requires pilot to help pay training expenses!) and pass along as much info as we can to each other.

Rasing salaries and quaity of life is always a priority to me.....you see....some of us dont have TRUST FUNDS

Sorry if I offended you, I t was not intentional

 

[slickmagneto]

If I was an owner....

I would be home counting my money with my new 18 yr. old girlfriend and wondering if those **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** pilots drank my last two beers I left on the airplane.

 

[rice]

G200

Amen Bro!!!!
And no it wasn't me that he hooked up.

SLICK
Ofcourse they drank 'em.

 

[swberry]

If you helped a pilot get a good job, fine. That is what it is SUPPOSED to be about. If you do not like to hear pilots discuss their low pay then go to the corporate board where the pay and benefits are good. Quit coming over here and kicking some of these guys around because their pay stinks. I am sick and tired of hearing your negativism toward fractional operations.

If I was king of this board I would have thrown your butt off the fractional part the first time you came over here throwing your weight around....

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Im not kicking anyone around because thier pay stinks...on the contrary...
I always said fractional guys work VERY hard - much harder than most corporate guys- and very much deserve more pay. Thats not "kicking" anyone around.

Why my concern for the 36K/yr Bizjet Captain??

OK, quick example...

Suppose I am suddenly out of work and on the job search.....OK, there is a DA50 position that needs to be crewed in my area..I have a few hours PIC in DA50s and go for it...I interview...the pay is 60K/yr....HOLY $HIT...how can that be?? well...the operator has more than a handful of 36K/yr guys to whom this is a NICE RAISE! They are psyched, finally making a few bucks...great. How can the rest of us compete? Now....a certain level of operator is looking for that level of pilot, but still...its rediculous. This is the most simple example of LOWERING THE BAR that I can cite, but Im sure you get it.

Its not about poking fun, its about protecting all of us - especially myself.

But heck, if I had a TRUST FUND I guess I just WOULD NOT CARE. Flying would simply be fun and I would be satisfied with a pat on the back and a few bucks a month...

 

[NJA Capt]

Suppose I am suddenly out of work and on the job search.....OK, there is a DA50 position that needs to be crewed in my area...I interview...the pay is 60K/yr...

How can the rest of us compete?

By saying no thanks and walking out of the interview. No-one says you have to accept the low pay.

Now....a certain level of operator is looking for that level of pilot, but still...its rediculous. This is the most simple example of LOWERING THE BAR that I can cite, but Im sure you get it.

I have given this example before too. Everyone says the fracs are "lowering the bar." How are a handful of frac operators bringing down the averages when there are literally THOUSANDS of charter and corps that pay less than we do? Don't give us that cop out. Fracs are just more visible and therefore an easy target.

If the fracs went to $500,000 a year. Do you think the corp depts are going to hike their pay "just because NetJets did?" Yea, Right.
But they all think their little departments are being penalized, "because the fracs do it."

We have 14-19 RONs/month too, are the corp CPs requiring you guys to stay out that long "just because NetJets does?"

PS...you have to consider entry level at the new company too. You don't see Delta 777 capts moving over to American and starting at $250K do you? No, it's back of the bus again. Why, he's got the 777 type and 30 years experience?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

c'mon NJA CAPT,

I aint talking 500K/yr!!!! where's that coming from??

What I am talking is 36K/yr!!!

Dont compare yourselves (and the other fracs) with fly-by night charter ops etc...stepping stone jobs..you guys always promote yourlselves as a career, hang your hat type of place. Thats the comaparisons I care about!

and tell me again how the 777 Capt with 30 years of experience is going to move over to another airline at first year pay? you seen this? ...c'mon...

 

[NJA Capt]

Dont compare yourselves (and the other fracs) with fly-by night charter ops etc...stepping stone jobs..you guys always promote yourlselves as a career, hang your hat type of place. Thats the comaparisons I care about!

and tell me again how the 777 Capt with 30 years of experience is going to move over to another airline at first year pay? you seen this? ...c'mon...

If you go from airline A to airline B, do you think you keep the same pay grade and seniority number? Of course not. You start over in the entry aircraft and pay at airline B.

Don't get technical, 500K was an exaggeration for illustration. My point is, if you are making $X.00 and the fracs "raise the bar" to your X.00+20% (or whatever), do you think your pay is going to go up "just because we did?" Of course not. So why do you think that your pay is held down because ours is repressed?

Old story....let it go.
See ya.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

UHHH...

raise your pay to mine +20%??????
Capt, all Im asking is to stop working for 50% LESS!!!!!

you dont have to "raise the bar" too much, just get the F'n thing off the floor!!!

but you are right....dead issue.....could go on forever.
I wish you a happy career and big success in your future contract.

 

[100-1/2]

TIPS?

In industries where tips are usual and customary, the "expected" rate is 15% of the bill. So, would it not translate to 15% of the charter bill/flight cost? Do the math and realize how rediculous this tip issue is becoming. Before starting my own company, I negotiated my wages when accepting and ONLY AFTER being offered the position. One of my current employees negotiated a higher wage than was presented in the interview. Depending on the position and responsibilities, if you are not doing your research before the interview and potential job offer to find what the industry average salaries are and comparing them to that which is offered, you are likely leaving money on the table. AND YES, even in today's "hard" economy/market, you should be negotiating AFTER the offer and definately, NOT during the interview where pay rates fall in the shadows of typical and median. Companies go to great deliberation to find you to be the best candidate for the job. Present a solid offer with supporting information that justifies your value as an employee worthy of your first raise and they will likely concede to a realistic compromise. BUT, be prepared to accept additional responsibilities not addressed during the interview. If you shrug or balk at this point, you will lose value and probably the job offer. Consider the 'additional' responsibilities as the "above and beyond the call" work and the additional PAY as your tips, IN ADVANCE! Most importantly, once successful in this process of getting the job, DON'T YOU EVER B!T@H here or anywhere else about not getting enough pay or tips for what you are doing. You had your chance to get what you thought you should be paid to do the job when it was offered.

Take pride in the job you do daily. Have enough integrity and self respect to appreciate the job and responsibility you have and do it well. Yes, you are a highly trained and skilled professional. Act like it. I expect to hear about people getting stiffed on a tip at Applebee's, NOT ON THIS BOARD. We are a cut above the rest and hold to a higher standard. Most of all, let your head hit the pillow at night knowing no one else's crew could have done as well as yours this day and sleep sound in that knowledge.

Blue skies and tailwinds my friends.
100-1/2

 

[infoman]

G200,

You are making some excellent points. I will tell you this. We have a MEC working hard, and 1800+ people with a whole boat load of ideas.

Guess what they are:

Pay? Yup
Schedule? Yup
Benefits? Yup

I could go on with the list. The point is simple. We are working hard on improving our life style, just as you have done over the years.

Will it happen soon? Hope so, but don't know.

Fly safe!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Good for you!
when is this supposed to happen?
Is the current state of this industry going to hurt your negotiations?
Good Luck to you all!

 

[swberry]

Why my concern for the 36K/yr Bizjet Captain??

OK, quick example...

Suppose I am suddenly out of work and on the job search.....OK, there is a DA50 position that needs to be crewed in my area..I have a few hours PIC in DA50s and go for it...I interview...the pay is 60K/yr....HOLY $HIT...how can that be?? well...the operator has more than a handful of 36K/yr guys to whom this is a NICE RAISE! They are psyched, finally making a few bucks...great. How can the rest of us compete? Now....a certain level of operator is looking for that level of pilot, but still...its rediculous. This is the most simple example of LOWERING THE BAR that I can cite, but Im sure you get it.

Hey numbnutz, take your very own advise and DON'T take the job!!!!!!! DUHHHHHHH??????? Since you seem to be so distracted by what other people do and make for a living why don"t you take that big time corporate pilot benefit package and start your own business. You can leave this career and you will not have to worry about these fractional pilots dragging down YOUR salary. You can come back to this board and spout all your negativism toward fractional ops and then you can tell me good luck and how much I deserve a raise. Pathetic.....

 

[Gulfstream 200]

you are an embarassment to your fellow pilots!

 

[swberry]

you are an embarassment to your fellow pilots!

You're probably right.......

 

[Live4flyng]

100-1/2

In industries where tips are usual and customary, the "expected" rate is 15% of the bill. So, would it not translate to 15% of the charter bill/flight cost? Do the math and realize how rediculous this tip issue is becoming.

I don't recall any pilots bitching about not being tipped, one just suggested it would be nice. NO , 15% of the bill is out of line, way to take things out of perspective Boss.

you are not doing your research before the interview and potential job offer to find what the industry average salaries are and comparing them to that which is offered, you are likely leaving money on the table.

Define industry average for a Fractional Pilot, since you know so much about it. Seems to me the Leader in fractional aviation is working on "setting the bar" as we speak.

Take pride in the job you do daily. Have enough integrity and self respect to appreciate the job and responsibility you have and do it well. Yes, you are a highly trained and skilled professional. Act like it.

PRIDE, INTEGRITY, SELF RESPECT, APPRECIATION, RESPONSIBILITY, SKILLED PROFESSIONAL......

Jesus, you are a piece of work! Who the hell would want to work for you and your hot dog stand? Obviously you don't know much about Fractionals, and didn't bother doing your research before posting here.